doubling modes, Creature of an Older World

[the JabberwocK]

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017, user Thorsten the Traveller wrote:

When my lone Ringwraith controls Creature of an Older World and plays Black Rider, in which mode is he?

When my lone RW controls a Black Horse and plays Creature of an Older World, in which mode is he?

Is this a question of last played card takes precedence, and even with allies?

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

When one mode effect is applied to a Ringwraith, all other cards applying a mode effect to that Ringwraith are discarded.
When a Ringwraith is in a mode, only apply the effects listed on the mode card, on the Ringwraith, and in the rules for that mode. Do not worry about cards that are not in play.
If an ally giving a mode is removed from play during the movement/hazard phase, the Ringwraith immediately stops being in that mode, but continues to move to his new site.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017, user Thorsten the Traveller wrote:

So if a RW is in a mode due to an ally, is the ally discarded when a mode event is played, or is the event discarded upon resolving?

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

The mode card that resolves is the one that takes effect.

If you already have a Black Horse ally and play Black Rider, Black Horse will be discarded, with all the results pertaining thereunto.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Thorsten the Traveller wrote:

Excellent, thanks. So does this also mean a RW cannot control 2 Black Horses, if that would mean his company is in Black Rider mode?
granted it puts him in the same mode, but one might argue they're 2 mode cards.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

That would be my interpretation, yes. Controlling one Black Horse puts the RW in Black Rider mode. Controlling another Black Horse is a separate instance of putting him in Black Rider mode.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Thorsten the Traveller wrote:

You're not rid of me yet! What if your RW controls a RW-follower and 2 Black Horses, so the company is not yet in Black Rider mode. Then the RW-follower also plays a Black Horse, bringing the company in Black Rider mode. Is one of the 2 Black Horses controlled by your RW discarded?

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

Wow, that got complicated in a hurry.

I would treat companies containing multiple RWs using Black Horse as a special case. Otherwise, both the Black Horses controlled by your main RW would have to be discarded, resulting in a mess, and making the whole point of the card invalid. (Of course, it was halfway to invalid anyway, since there's no way to have a size 9 company move even if you did get all the Horses and RWs into play.)

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Konrad Klar wrote:

When one mode effect is applied to a Ringwraith, all other cards applying a mode effect to that Ringwraith are discarded.

I think that each next Black Horse does not apply a Black Rider mode to a Ringwraith's company that is already in Black Rider mode.
First Black Horse that applies mode is the Black Horse that makes each Ringwraith character in a company a controller of Black Horse.
I.e. until at least one Ringwraith character in company does not control a Black Horse, the company is not in Black Rider mode (unless Black Raider card is played on company [what a wasting of resources...]).

I think that the card is not screwed. Screwed are two rules:

When one mode effect is applied to a Ringwraith, all other cards applying a mode effect to that Ringwraith are discarded.

ICE authors are unable to decide which entity is in mode - Ringwraith or its company. Texts of cards that gives a mode indicate that its company.

Annotation 9a: If a card is required to be discarded by some passive condition, the
card is discarded immediately when the condition resolves, not in the following chain of effects.

A card causing an action as a result of a passive condition must be in play when the
action resolves, or else the action is canceled.

Annotation 9a is screwed (the last quoted rule is OK, I have quoted it to explain why Annotation 9a is screwed).
When Black Horse leaves active play it does not cause discarding of its controller, but causes returning the controller to hand.
That is not covered by Annotation 9a and therefore the last quoted rule takes effect - returning does not happen.

If Annotation 9a would sound:

"Annotation 9a: If a card is required to leave active play by some passive condition, the
card leaves active play immediately when the condition resolves, not in the following chain of effects."

then the returning a controller to hand could happen.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

When one mode effect is applied to a Ringwraith, all other cards applying a mode effect to that Ringwraith are discarded.

I think that each next Black Horse does not apply a Black Rider mode to a Ringwraith's company that is already in Black Rider mode.
First Black Horse that applies mode is the Black Horse that makes each Ringwraith character in a company a controller of Black Horse.
I.e. until at least one Ringwraith character in company does not control a Black Horse, the company is not in Black Rider mode (unless Black Raider card is played on company [what a wasting of resources...]).

Each instance of Black Horse ally applies a mode effect to its controlling Ringwraith provided the conditions are met, so far as I know. Nothing about already having fulfilled the conditions on one copy of Black Rider prevents the conditions on another from being fulfilled and applying a mode effect to the company (which presumably means that it is applied to each RW in the company, though that is not made explicit).

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Thursday, April 6, 2017, user Konrad Klar wrote:

Playable on a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven [V] (does not tap the site). Each Black Horse in your Ringwraith's company allows you to play one Ringwraith follower who requires no direct influence to control. If each Ringwraith in a company has a Black Horse, the company is in Black Rider mode and may freely move (using starter movement). You may include up to nine copies of this card in your play deck and sideboard combined. Return its controller to your hand if Black Horse leaves active play.

"If each Ringwraith in a company has a Black Horse, the company is in Black Rider mode and may freely move (using starter movement)."
If Ringwraith controls Black Horse and his follower does not, the company is not in Black Rider mode (unless Black Rider card is on company).
Right?
Can you say that in this situation Black Horse applies mode?
Whom?

How you imagine an interaction between cards that give mode to single Ringwraith character with cards that give mode to whole company?
According to: "When one mode effect is applied to a Ringwraith, all other cards applying a mode effect to that Ringwraith are discarded"
A cards that give mode to single Ringwraith character are imaginary cards (none of texts of cards says "Ringwraith is in such or such mode"). A cards that give mode to whole company are real.

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Wednesday, April 6, 2017, user Bandobras Took wrote:

However, in order to move from a Darkhaven to a non-Darkhaven site, a Ringwraith must have a special resource card: a Black Rider card, a Fell Rider card, or a Heralded Lord card (i.e., the Ringwraith must be in Black Rider mode, in Fell Rider mode, or in Heralded Lord mode).

Black Rider mode. Playable at a Darkhaven during the organization phase on your Ringwraith's own company. The company may move to a non-Darkhaven site. Discard this card and any other Ringwraith followers in the company during any of your following organization phases the company is at a Darkhaven. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.

Fell Rider mode. Playable at a Darkhaven during the organization phase on your Ringwraith's own company. +2 prowess, -3 direct influence to your Ringwraith. Discard all allies and Ringwraith followers in the company; none may join the company. Your Ringwraith may move to a non-Darkhaven site. Discard this card during any of your following organization phases the company is at a Darkhaven. Cannot be duplicated on a given company.

Heralded Lord mode. Playable on your Ringwraith's company at a Darkhaven during the organization phase. -2 prowess, +3 direct influence to entire company. His own company may move to a non-Darkhaven site. Discard this card and any other Ringwraith followers in the company during any of your following organization phases the company is at a Darkhaven.

Strictly speaking, a mode card is always applied to the company. Each Ringwraith in the company is in the mode indicated by the card, either by keyword or by effect text. Fell Rider reduces that company if necessary, but still applies to the company. Black Horse is no different. Once its conditions are met it applies a mode. If its conditions are not met, it does not. If a RW controls Black Horse and his follower does not, no Black Horse applies any mode.

Once each RW in the company controls a Black Horse ally, all of the Black Horses in the company apply a mode to the company. This unfortunately means that there are multiple cards applying a mode to a Ringwraith, and the Black Horses must be discarded.

ICE authors are unable to decide which entity is in mode - Ringwraith or its company. Texts of cards that gives a mode indicate that its company.

This ignores a third possibility -- both the company and the Ringwraith are in the mode. Texts of Ringwraiths indicate bonuses that occur only if the RW is in a given mode. If a mode is applied to a company, all characters in the company are in that mode. (Something similar happens with the defeat of an At-Home Dragon for the purpose of King Under the Mountain -- the company defeated the dragon, but each character of that company also bears "defeated the dragon", so to speak.)

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.

[the JabberwocK]

On Friday, April 7, 2017, user Konrad Klar wrote:

This ignores a third possibility -- both the company and the Ringwraith are in the mode. Texts of Ringwraiths indicate bonuses that occur only if the RW is in a given mode. If a mode is applied to a company, all characters in the company are in that mode. (Something similar happens with the defeat of an At-Home Dragon for the purpose of King Under the Mountain -- the company defeated the dragon, but each character of that company also bears "defeated the dragon", so to speak.)

And something similar happens when a company is at a site - each member of the company is then at the site. A company may not be partly at the site - with some members at the site and some not at the site (not in current set of cards and rules).

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.