Legendary Hoard

[zirilan]

(click to enlarge)

Daelomin at Home + Legendary Hoard = hl ∞

Just discard Daelomin at Home for +2 hazard limit, due to Legendary Hoard the discard won't take place but the Daelomin at Home card is inverted. Discard Daelomin at Home again for another +2 hazard limit and due to Legendary Hoard the Daelomin at Home card is inverted back to normal status etc. etc. etc.

[Konrad Klar]

Question is: why Dragon at Home is inverted?
Maybe to tick that it does no longer count as being in play and its card serves only as host for Legendary Hoard?
Not sure though.

BTW. First post is very illustrative.

[Bandobras Took]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but

An active condition must be in play or established when the action requiring it is declared. Active conditions serve as the price of an action. They are restrictions on the player invoking the action.

Legendary Horde prevents Daelomin from being discarded. Therefore, the hazard limit raising action does not take effect.

[Konrad Klar]

"If target Dragon is required to be discarded or removed to play invert Dragon on table until this card is discarded."

Other interpretation:
Legendary Hoard does not prevent the Dragon from being discarded or removed from play, but only changes normal result of discarding/removing from play to inverting.
So ability of Daelomin at Home under Legendary Hoard would be used once.
Cards that prevent other cards (like characters) from being discarded just prevents them from being discarded. They does not change result of discarding. They says "cannot be discarded", or "is never discarded", not "if target is required to be discarded".

[zirilan]

There is no rule that you cannot target or use a card that is inverted (like wounded characters, Fate of the Ithil-stone, etc.). Since Daelomin at Home does not need to be 'uninverted' in order to use it, you can use it even if inverted or tapped. Legendary Hoard does not say, you cannot use the attached Dragon at Home once it is inverted.

[Konrad Klar]

Right. There is no rules about invering. LH does not say you cannot use the attached Dragon at Home once it is inverted. In fact it also does not say for what it is inverted. Maybe for nothing. Probably additional AA at appropriate dragon's lair is still present too. Even if other manifestation of target Dragon is eliminated.

[Bandobras Took]

The wording on Legendary Hoard can be confusing. I suggest treating "invert" as "flip over"and players remembering the actual status of the At Home Dragon manifestation. Thus, if it has been Marvels Tolded, consider it discarded and the other player is free to play his/her version of the same At Home Dragon. If the dragon has been eliminated, apply all the effects of a slain dragon.

Therefore, a "flipped over"At Home Dragon under Legendary Hoard does not apply any of its effects. This also avoids any confusion as to how many times the dragon has been rotated and any possible cheezy abominations of a cool thematic card.

If you accept that the card is somehow still discarded, you nonetheless can't use it for anything.

To my mind, saying a card has been discarded when it's not in the discard pile is as silly as saying you've drawn it when it's not in your hand.

[Konrad Klar]

Card may be required to being discarded according to the result of action, or according to the condition of action (that states that certain card must be discarded).
In both cases player may make somethig in lieu.
Leaf Brooch refer to the first case (discarding as result). Memories Recalled refer to the second case (discarding as condition) - Fate of The Ithil-Stone, or Into The Smoking Cone does not force company to discard Lost Knowledge card the company controls. Discarding LK card is condition of playing Fate of The Ithil-Stone, or inverting Into The Smoking Cone. They are both voluntary actions.
And of course in both cases LK (or non-special item) is not being discarded, and it is not placed in discard pile. However condition is considered fulfilled (result is considered executed) - rules does not ask "what happened to the LK (non-special item)?".
Similarly if Burglary has been played, the company has fulfilled condition that requires facing AA at site before taking other actvities in site phase, despite of fact that AA has not been actually faced (if attempt was successfull).

P.S. I agree - CoE 7 is poorly written.

[Wacho]

All of these questions have already been addressed. This is from COE #46

Re: Legendary Hoard
If the Dragon is inverted, does that mean it no longer has any effect on
play? Its special effect is gone and there's no longer an extra
auto-attack at the site?
*** Consider the inverted dragon to be "off to the side." This card
was written before putting cards off to the side became a rule. So,
yes, the at Home dragon's effects are no longer in play.
--------
Re: Legendary Hoard
It says "if target Dragon is required to be discarded" - could I play
L.H. on Daelomin at Home, then discard him to increase the hazard limit
and simply have him inverted on the table? And then, after rotating
L.H. by playing Daelomin Ahunt or the dragon himself, go in and loot a
hoard for multiple items playable at the site after only facing the
standard auto-attack of 2 @ 11 at Dancing Spires?
*** Yes, this is all a legal play. Note that a player is only allowed
up to 3 items per game per copy of Legendary Hoard.

Legendary Hoard does have some weird effects, because it is one of the only cards that has memory, and as stated it was created before the rule of "off to the side" came into play.

[zirilan]

Thanks for the replies to the question.
Could someone put that "new cardtext" with the "off to the side"-phrase from the COE #46 into the erratum of Legendary Hoard?

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I think the ruling on this card goes against the spirit of the card.

The automatic-attack cannot be cancelled. Obviously the idea is that looting the site comes with a price.

If the Dragon is Marvelled, not only is the looting for free, but also the Dragon will stay in play so there is no way that he might come around again to hurt you. This makes the card do exactly the oposite of what it intends.

For DC purpose we will therefore make a ruling: the Dragon is "off to the side," but (unless slain) considered in play for the purpose of creating an automatic-attack.

[Konrad Klar]

About spirit of the card...
"If target Dragon is required to be discarded or removed to play invert Dragon on table until this card is discarded."

Target Dragon may be removed from play due to elimination of its manifestation - this is a reason independent of the target card.
But there is no external effects that would discard At Home manifestation (something like leaving from play The Will of Sauron does for hazard long-events)*. It must be targeted by discarding action, or otherwise directly involved (like Daelomin at Home).

So if Legendary Hoard's text foresee possibility of discarding a target, the target cannot be considered placed off to the side.

*) And even if such effects exists they would not affect an off to the side cards.

[Thorsten the Traveller]

Obviously the off to side part would only apply once the dragon is inverted, just as it is ruled now.

Off to side and its effects are not conclusively defined. Hosts that put stuff off to side can still define what the status is of the card under it, e.g. like gives no mp's. This one will say "(unless eliminated) associated automatic-attack has effect on the game", this way the at home's special effect does nothing but you can at least still kill the Dragon, without having to hope you run into another manifestation of it.

[dirhaval]

Thank you for the posts. I wanted to learn more of this resource before beginning a new topic.
The posts have helped me more of this card. I say the inverting of the Dragon is to keep
memory on the site since a dead Dragon will get discarded.
To me LH is a resource to be exploited by a player playing the at Home Dragon.
A player will play the At Home hazard, LH, then Marvel Tolds the hazard. Unless his opponent
has that hazard the site is free to raid using Not at Home and a party of dwarves.
I say that another copy of the hazard can be played by an opponent. However, if that hazard
is discarded it is discarded right? Since LH targets a specific card, which is inverted now and not in "play".

The inverting does give the raider problems. If he cannot raid, but his opponent can the raider is left
without the At Home hazard to defend the hoard.

[the JabberwocK]

On Wednesday, April 5, 2017, user Thorsten the Traveller wrote:

Another Legendary Hoard question. The card says:
"Discard this card when any item is played at target Dragon's lair that taps the site."

Since Legendary Hoard has a target Dragon's lair, but is not played on a site, that applies to all versions of the site I assume. And therefore Legendary Hoard will get discarded if my opponent plays an item at the site that taps his version of the site?
And all players count their items played at (any version of) the site together to see if any site is tapped?

This post has been re-created due to lost data and was originally posted by the author quoted above.