Theo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am
The rules for events describe actions being resolved in a chain of
effects. Regardless of tense, there is an action.
Again, note the underline word choice... And didn't you already come to terms with not all effects being actions? I'd really rather not have to track down your own quote.
I wrote about this in the "old to the game" post. But my interpretation of the rules and events cards is summed up below.
Effect of Events are either:
- (A) An immediate action (almost every effect on an event, including immediate actions having active conditions)
- (B) An action triggerable later by an active condition (mostly seen on some permanent events that tap)
- (C) An action triggerable later by a passive condition (mostly seen on long and permanent events)
In rare cases, a card will have:
- (D) An effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (mostly on permanent stage events from MEWH)
- (E) A handful of exceptions that could fall under (B) by using a mostly meaningless "tap this card to" active condition (see discussion of Armory, etc. below)
Short-events only ever do (A) or (C), and (C) is rare. I haven't noticed short-events that have other effects. I can't think of any short events that create a lasting effect that let you (B) perform some active condition later to trigger an action later on in the turn.
So, how can you tell what category an effect is? Start by assuming that it's (A) an immediate actions and see if that works. Does it (1) have an action and (2) have a specific target and (3) can be done immediately. If this is true, you're done. If not, why not?
Does the action not have (2) a specific target? Does it specify an action but that action applies to non-specific targets like "each" or "all" of something? Or is the target potentially not in play yet? Or is the action waiting for something to happen that hasn't happened yet? If so, it's (C) an action triggered by a passive condition.
Or is it not possible to (3) take the action immediately? Why can't the action be taken? Does the action require an entity to be tapped or discarded but that entity is potentially not in play (the entity is not required by this card)? Then it's (B) an action triggered by an active condition. If the action can't be taken because the target is not in play or the action is waiting for something to happen, see the points on (C) above.
Or, rarely, does the effect not even (1) specify an action that can be taken? Does the effect state when/how a class of actions can occur without specifying a particular action to be taken? Then the effect is (D) an effect that modifies the rules. By reading the effect, you can determine which corresponding rule is being modified.
What if it seems like the effect is under category (D) since it is an effect that allows you to do something beyond the rules, but then there is no corresponding rule that would be modified (meaning the effect is new)? Then the effect is likely under category (E) an exceptional effect that could have and probably should have been written with (B) an active condition to tap the card.
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Theo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am
What is the action for e.g. Roam the Waste?
Roam the Waste has the following effect: "
Each of your companies this turn is considered to have one fewer Wilderness and one fewer Shadow-land in its site path."
This effect creates (C) an action triggered by a passive condition. You can tell because the effect has an action but there is no way to specify a target ("each company" is affected). The action is removing a wilderness or shadow-land, the target is the company's site path, the passive condition triggering the action is the revealing of the company's site-path (revealing a new site, the region cards, special movement path, etc.).
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Theo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am
Unfortunately the consistency you desire is not upheld in the actual cards.
I think there is consistency except for a handful of exceptions that could easily be fit into the framework (Category E above). Some of those exceptions are effects from Armory, Rumours of Rings, A Strident Spawn, and similar cards. These cards have effects that don't fit the framework but could have fit the framework if they simply tapped to caused their effect (which would not diminish their usefulness). For example:
- Armory: You may Tap Armory to place any minor items from your hand under Armory during your organization phase.
- Rumours of Rings: During your organization phase, you may tap Rumours of Rings to take one ring special item (except for The One Ring) from your sideboard and place it "off to the side" with this card.
- A Strident Spawn: During your organization phase, you may tap A Strident Spawn to take one Half-orc character from your discard pile to your hand.
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Theo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am
Beyond numerous hazard creatures specifying their own playability (your interpretation would suggest this wording allows them to skirt the rule that they can only start a chain of effects), let's look at:
Fury of the Iron Crown: "May not be played if The Iron Crown is in play." (not "Is not playable if...")
I don't see how my interpretation would allow a hazard creature to skirt the rules. I'm not asserting that playability conditions listed on cards are effects.
There are many statements on cards that are not effects. For example, (A) Playability conditions are not effects. (B) Keywords are not effects. (C) indications of effects being alternative/optional (e.g., use of "
alternatively," "may be played as a creature or a permanent event, etc.) are not effects themselves.
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Theo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am
Gwaihir: "only hazard creatures keyed to the site may be played on a company that moves in this fashion." (under your interpretation, this perhaps doesn't effect creatures that are "playable" on the company/site, and only effects creatures that would be immediately played upon resolution of another "may be played" effect?)
I'm not following your statement. My interpretation of resolving events doesn't rely on a difference between (A) creatures that are "playable" on the company/site, and (B) creatures that would be immediately played upon resolution of another "may be played" effect.
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Theo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:59 am
Similarly, I'd like to hear your explanation of such diverse cards as:
Old Road
Army of the Dead
Surion
Buthrakur the Green
The Gem-deeps
Ok, Sure. But what are the issues with these cards?
- Old Road -- an early METW card that would be written more like Hour of Need if it came later (e.g., "playable on a character at a haven during the site phase. Play a faction from hand, tap some character to make an influence attempt, modify the attempt, etc).
- Army of the Dead: "May only be played by Aragorn II on the same turn he plays Paths of the Dead." -- this statement has 2 conditions: (1) Aragorn II makes the influence attempts and (2) a playability condition like those found on events.
- Surion -- what could be the issue here? That the factions are not named directly?
- Buthrakur the Green: "Any non-unique Orc or Troll hazard creature can be played (not counting against the hazard limit) on a company that has faced Bûthrakaur that turn." -- This is an interesting effect. One of the few pre-MEWH cards that has (D) an effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (the rules for playing creatures).
- The Gem-deeps -- what is the issue here? Is it the "Special" effect for playing Undead and Pukel creatures? That's similar to Buthrakur.