[NetRep] Official Rulings Digest 120

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zarathustra
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[NetRep] Official Rulings Digest 120

Post by zarathustra »

I apologize for the long delay between this digest and the previous one. Life has been extremely hectic, both because I had to step in to help organize Worlds 2008 and because I’m becoming an adult… ;)

To better serve the community, we have decided that Mikko will become the NetRep while I remain on the NetRep team and focus on finishing the Universal Rulebook. This is therefore my final CoE digest, but certainly not the last time I’ll be involved in Middle Earth.

1) Charles asked: " When can an on guard Lure of Power be revealed?
1. Immediately after a company enters a site
2. After a character taps for an influence attempt (but before dice roll)
3. After a character taps for an influence attempt AND after resource player plays any cards modifying the influence attempt (but before dice roll)"
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The Lure may only be revealed after a character taps for an influence attempt, but before the dice roll. Your option 2 is correct.

2) Dominic asked: "Seized by terror is succesfully played on a characetr bearing Palantir of Amon Sul/Osgiliath. Is the Palantir discarded?"
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No, the character is no longer considered to be moving, so the palantir is not discarded. If, during the next movement/hazard phase the character attempts to move alone, the palantir is discarded.

3) Dominic asked: "Alatar plays The Hunt; Fellowship has been played on his company: Is Fellowship discarded? Does he get a +1 prowess bonus?"
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Yes, he does get the bonus. No, the Fellowship is not discarded.

4) Dominic asked: "Can I grab Mithril with Palantir of Annuminas? Crf says every card requiring a sage to play is sage only, but what about the possibility of a dwarf playing mithril...?"
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You put your finger on the problem. Mithril doesn't require a sage; it requires a sage or dwarf, so it cannot be fetched with the Palantir of Annuminas.

5) Ben asked a sequence of questions: "What with the earlier Adunaphel ruling, I have some serious questions about Blind to the West and Ire of the East revolving around the phrase "any time."
a) Is it actually legal to play this card outside of the movement/hazard phase? A strict comparison with Adunaphel indicates no, while a strict comparison with Twilight indicates yes. Between the two, however, Twilight is the one that may also be played as a resource, which makes Twilight easier to understand.
b) Does this card bypass the continuing effects of such cards as Spying Out the Land, or does "any time" not refer to effects that would prevent the play of all hazards?
c) May this card be played once a chain of effects has started resolving, since it may be played at any time?
d) May this card be played while CvCC is occurring? Can it, indeed, be played for no effect since it may be played at any time?
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a) Yes, it is. Twilight is the correct comparison.
b) No, it does not bypass such effects. This is a case of Card vs. card, not card vs. rule.
c) No. It may be played when a card may be played. Since nothing may be played once a chain of events has started resolving, Blind / Ire cannot be played either.
d) It may be played during CvCC. It may not be played for no effect: it targets a short event played earlier in the same chain of effects, and so may only be played when such a target exists.

6) Joe Bisz asked whether Smoke on the Wind and Burning Rick, Cot, and Tree target the sites at which they are played.
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They don't.

7) The question has arisen whether a hazard player must specify at declaration the region/site to which his creature is keyed, and furthermore, whether the region/site specified may be changed at resolution. For instance, against a company moving through a shadowland and a dark-domain, can a hazard player declare an attack by an Orc-Guard keyed to the shadowland, then change the region resolution and key it instead to dark-domain?
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There is no basis in the rules for allowing a hazard player to change the region/site to which his creature is keyed. The region/site specified when the creature is played is the only allowable region/site when the creature resolves.

Birk asked a number of questions:

8) Await the advent of allies

I'm not sure what the condition is for "play a card at the site". Does this mean when I play a "Marvels Told" or "Risky Blow" or a other short event, that then AtAoA is discarded? An when can I play such card? Also during the council so that then the characterpoints are counting?
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The condition is: the card must require the site to be played. Marvels Told therefore does not count. Rescue Prisoners does. I don’t know of any such cards that can be played during the council, but if they exist, they will discard Await.


9) The Sun Unveiled

If I travel to a freehold during movement hazard phase, then I can't use this card because I'm then "in transit". But what about the site phase? May I use TSU to untap a character to fulfill the condition to tap a ranger for a "River"? Additional: May I use TSU during the cc at Council to untap a character who then can give +1 support for a cc?
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You can't use TSU during the movement hazard phase if the character is moving. You can't use it before tapping for a River during the site phase. You can't use it during the council because it does not directly affect the cc.


10) Rank upon Rank

When I play RuR to modify the attack of a "Assassin" what are the modifications for the strike? The prowess of the "Assassin" is then 11+1 = 12. And I think that the "Assassin" still has one strike to the character and so no -1 penalty is not coubting.
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The assassin has two strikes because Rank Upon Rank adds a strike. That strike cannot target another character, so it becomes a -1 modifier against the character facing the first strike.

11) LONG, GRIEVOUS SIEGE ‐ Permanent‐event (R)
[MP: 1]
Playable on a unique non‐Dragon faction. Place a Border‐hold [ ] from your location deck ʺoff to the sideʺ with this card. The Border‐hold [ ] must be in the same region or adjacent thereto as a site where the target faction is playable. Return any faction
playable at the Border‐hold [ ] to its ownerʹs hand. ‐5 to any attempt to play a faction at any version of the Border‐ hold. All versions of the Border‐hold [ ] gain an additional automatic‐attack: same type as your target faction 5 strikes with 9 prowess
(detainment against your companies). Cannot be duplicated on your faction.


May I use a faction from my opponent?
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No, your resources may not target your opponent’s resources.

12)
If the answer is Yes then I can use the Borderhold where the faction is playable and the the faction is discarded?
Example: Opponent played "Easterlings" at "Easterling Camp". I put LGS on the "Easterling Camp". So the "Easterlings" are discarded because this faction is playable at this Borderhold. Additoonal, to make it more interesting: The Easterlings are the hero version
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Since the original answer was no, this question is irrelevant.

13)
Additional: When I use a Borderhold then also the following faction are discarded because these faction are playable at a Borderhold:

A Panoply pf Wings (when the Borderhold is in a Wilderness)
Beasts of the Wood (when the Borderhold is in Woodland Realm, Western Mirkwood, Heart of Mirkwood, Southern Mirkwood, Fangorn, or Cardolan)
WILD HORSES (when the Borderhold is in Rohan, Southern Rhovanion, Khand, Dorwinion, Horse Plains, or Harondor)
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That’s correct

14)
But these faction will not have ‐5 to any attempt to play unless I try to play the faction at the LGS-Borderhold.
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That’s also correct.

15)
Additional question to the Borderhold. My opponent changed a Freehold to a Borderhold (New Moon + Doors of Night). May I use now the changed site to fulfill the conditions of LGS?
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I don't quite understand how your opponent could change the site type while the site is in your location deck. If the site is in play and New Moon is played on it, then you cannot use LGS on the site. If it's in your location deck, then New Moon cannot be played on it.

16) Fallen Gandalf Player and auto attacks: A Fallen Gandalf Player now is using the LGS-Borderhold which now is a Free Hold because New Moon is gone. Now the Fallen Gandalf Player plays

CHAMBERS IN THE ROYAL COURT ‐ Permanent‐event (U)
[SP: 1]
Gandalf specific. Playable on one of your hero Free‐hold [ ] sites in play. This site becomes a Wizardhaven [ ] for your companies,
loses all automatic‐ attacks against your companies, and is one of Gandalfʹs home sites. Nothing is considered playable as written on
the site card. If one of your companies is at this site, all attacks against it are canceled. Other Fallen‐wizards may not use this site as
a Wizardhaven [ ]. Discard this card when the site is discarded or returned to its location deck. It cannot be discarded otherwise.
Cannot be duplicated on a given site.

So the site is still a site with an automatic attack for fullfilling the conditions of having a site with an auto attack to play resources.

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I don't see exactly what your question is here. If you are asking whether Gandalf can play Chambers on a hero freehold with an automatic attack, the answer is yes.

17) Rank upon Rank is on the table and I have to fight against an Assassin. I defeated the fitst attack. Is now Rank upon Rank discarded, bceacuse it says if one of this attack is defeaded.
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Yes, if you defeat the first attack of the assassin, Rank upon Rank will be discarded


18) Charles Jenkins said, "My opponent moved to Zarak Dum and Scorba at Home was in play (kutm vs kutm!). My haz deck packs unabated and tidings to protect my at homes from the opponent. I play TOBS. My opponent assumes that "defeating" the "exact duplicate" of Scorba at Home allows him to play KUTM on Dain. I stated that I was certain that this situation had been ruled on in the past and that defeat of an attack created by TOBS+ at home dragon does not constitute defeating the at home dragon, just a copy of the at home. I can't easily reference past rulings but I did see the recent ruling regarding exile of solitute. You stated that defeat of TOBS+at home does not yield kill points which seems to tangentially imply that the at home is not defeated, i.e. (tobs)+(at home) does not equal (at home)."
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The At Home dragon would not be defeated in this case, so KutM would not be playable.


19)
Karsten asked "I'd really like to get an official answer from the netrep concerning my question on ties in The Riddle Game. As far as I know this hasn't been answered before. Here is the link to the discussion: http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=992
The Riddle Game wrote:
Riddling attempt. Playable during the site phase on a character at the same site as one of opponent's companies. Tap the character Opponent chooses a character from his company to play the riddle game. Each player makes a riddling roll (or draws a #) modified by +2 if his character is a sage and by +1 if a Hobbit (re-roll ties). The player with the highest result wins. He then names two cards and the other player reveals his hand If any of the named cards are revealed, they are immediately discarded.

Wit wrote:
Modify one riddling roll by +3. If applicable, this card may also be played during your opponent's site phase if a riddling roll is called for.

I wonder about the re-roll ties-part in The Riddle Game. What happens if I played Wit on the roll and a re-roll is necessary. Do I get +3 to the second roll, too?
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No, you do not get the +3 on the second roll.


20)
Sebastian asked, "when i play flatter a foe and reduce the hazard limit to zero, which cards can my opponent play in reponse? any hazard short event? many sorrows befall makes sense to me in this case because my intuition says: if flattery a foe reduces the hazard limit to zero, only cards that cancel the flattery attempt can be played in response. but i'm afraid that's wrong :-)

so is the opponent also allowed to play hazards, that don't effect flatter a foe? for example river?
creatures are not allowed to play right? what about permanent and long events?"
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Your opponent can play anything that needn’t start a chain of effects. Hence, he may not play a corruption card or anything that might cause an attack (e.g., a creature, an ahunt dragon, tidings of bold spies). Otherwise, he can play anything he likes.


21) I was asked to rule on the topic discussed in the following thread: http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?p=20758#20758
There are two questions in this thread.
a) Does Long Dark Reach “break” stealth? That is, can Long Dark Reach be used to attack a company that successfully played stealth in the organization phase.
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Yes, it can. The creature is not played but revealed. The CRF clarification on Long Dark Reach saying “A creature must be played if there is one available” does not use “play” in the technical sense of bringing a card from the hand into play.

b) If the creature attack caused by Long Dark Reach is defeated, does the resource player get kill marshalling points for it?
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Yes.



Best,

Mark Alfano
mark.alfano@gmail.com

Official Council of Elrond Netrep*
http://www.councilofelrond.org/, http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/index.php,

*Prepared in collaboration with Mikko Vihtemäki (NetRep Team), and Brian Min, Manuel Cabezali Romero, Konrad Klar, and David Barton (NetRep Advisors).
http://www.alfanos.org

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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took »

Woohoo! A digest!

Thanks for all the hard work, and all hail the new and old NetReps!

Manuel
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Post by Manuel »

Yes, this is good news indeed! I'm very happy Mikko has accepted the job, he's obviously the best one to do it =)

marcos
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Post by marcos »

congrats to Mikko and many thanks to Mark for all the support given during these years

Ringbearer
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Post by Ringbearer »

Now the old king is dead, long live the king!


*starts making complex rulesquestions for Mikko*
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.

Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar »

Some of questions asnswered by this ruling was not discussed at NetRep subforum, some was merely raised. So I've decided to put my comments here.

1). Charles asked: " When can an on guard Lure of Power be revealed?

I think that answer 3 is valid too. As long as on-guard is revealed in the same coe initiated by X it is considered as revealed in response to X.

2). Characters itself cannot be returned to the site of origin. Companies can be returned. For this reason target of Seized by Terror forms its own company that is immediately returned to the site of origin.
"Moving" state of company is condition sine qua non for returning company. So if company was returned it was moving by (at least) some time. At this moment Palantir should be discarded.

3). Fully agreed.

4). I'm not sure.

5-8). Fully agreed.

9). I think that it may be used to remove corruption cards on target during Audience/Council.

10-15). Fully afreed.

16). I think Birk is assuming here that answer to 15). is "Yes" and he is asking for site that is normally FH, has been changed to BH and as BH was used with LGS. Because answer to 15). is "No", such situation may not happen.

17-18). Fully agreed.

19). I think that re-rolls required by The Riddle Game are in fact the same roll (in other words there is only one roll on one attempt). Re-roll is made, because ties are inacceptable. It is similar to situation when rolled dice stops in udetermined position (not at 1,2,3,4,5,6). Physically new roll is made, but technically it is the same roll.

21). I could repeat my opinion written here:
http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... =7931#7931
Some records from CRF says about "playing a card from hand".
If words "from hand" would be added in these cases by accident, it would be accidentally added to the definition too.

However if definition of playing card would be actually
"Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play."
and not just:
"Playing a card is the process of bringing a card into play."
thet it leads to some phenomenons like creature cards that are in play (for all purposes), but was never played (only revealed).
Also such ruling will have impact on interpretation of Exhalation of Decay and In Great Wrath.
Case of Long Dark Reach shows that in some circumstances creature can attack even if it cannot be played. Nazgul or Undead from Discard Pile are not played according to the definition:
"Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play."
Such things only happens when language glitches becomes rules.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

zarathustra
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Post by zarathustra »

Thanks, Konrad ;) You always clarify the issue ;)
http://www.alfanos.org

Frodo
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Post by Frodo »

Err, Mark, so does that mean he's **right**?

Or do we have to wait for Mikko to decide in the next digest?

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CDavis7M
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Re: [NetRep] Official Rulings Digest 120

Post by CDavis7M »

zarathustra wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:09 pm
20)
Sebastian asked, "when i play flatter a foe and reduce the hazard limit to zero, which cards can my opponent play in reponse? any hazard short event? many sorrows befall makes sense to me in this case because my intuition says: if flattery a foe reduces the hazard limit to zero, only cards that cancel the flattery attempt can be played in response. but i'm afraid that's wrong :-)

so is the opponent also allowed to play hazards, that don't effect flatter a foe? for example river?
creatures are not allowed to play right? what about permanent and long events?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opponent can play anything that needn’t start a chain of effects. Hence, he may not play a corruption card or anything that might cause an attack (e.g., a creature, an ahunt dragon, tidings of bold spies). Otherwise, he can play anything he likes.
Annotation 15: An attack must be the first declared action in a chain of effects
Playing a Dragon Ahunt does not declare an attack. It creates an effect that triggers an attack using a passive condition.
So, you can play a Dragon Ahunt long-event in response to another card/effect, including Flatter a Foe.

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CDavis7M
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Re: [NetRep] Official Rulings Digest 120

Post by CDavis7M »

zarathustra wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:09 pm
19)
Karsten asked "I'd really like to get an official answer from the netrep concerning my question on ties in The Riddle Game. As far as I know this hasn't been answered before. Here is the link to the discussion: http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=992
The Riddle Game wrote:
Riddling attempt. Playable during the site phase on a character at the same site as one of opponent's companies. Tap the character Opponent chooses a character from his company to play the riddle game. Each player makes a riddling roll (or draws a #) modified by +2 if his character is a sage and by +1 if a Hobbit (re-roll ties). The player with the highest result wins. He then names two cards and the other player reveals his hand If any of the named cards are revealed, they are immediately discarded.

Wit wrote:
Modify one riddling roll by +3. If applicable, this card may also be played during your opponent's site phase if a riddling roll is called for.

I wonder about the re-roll ties-part in The Riddle Game. What happens if I played Wit on the roll and a re-roll is necessary. Do I get +3 to the second roll, too?
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No, you do not get the +3 on the second roll.
Annotation 24: If a card specifies that more than one action occurs when the card itself is resolved in a chain of effects, all of these actions are to be resolved in the card's chain of effects uninterrupted and in the order listed on the card. No actions may be declared to occur between these multiple actions.

Riddling Game says re-roll. "re" -- the same again. It doesn't make sense for the re-roll to be some new/different roll that either interrupts the existing chain of effects. And it doesn't make sense the the re-roll to be some separately declared action that is declared when Riddling Game is declared. Instead, re-roll just repeats the same riddling roll with the same +2 for sage, +1 for Hobbit, and +3 for Wit.

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