Okay, so for a year now I've been looking at Legolas and thinking, "Yes, his ranger ability is very cool. Yes, the MP dwarf faction bonus is a nice plus... sort of... but I wish he was just somehow had another ability that was more thematic... or even just stronger... because, when it comes right down to it, he just dies so easily!" (And Beorn is TWO prowess stronger than him.)
Here is my insane idea:
"If in a company with Gimli, your dwarf factions are worth +1 MP and they may take Orc and Troll creatures as trophies (double the bonuses)."
!!!
I say "double the bonuses" because keep in mind that minions often face creatures worth more than 1 MP, but this will rarely happen to Lego and Gimli. Doubling the bonuses makes the cooler, higher bonuses actually possible. It also makes it possible (if they fight REALLY well) for one of them to control the other under DI... though this would only be near the end of the game if they've fought so many orcs (4 MP worth) that they are both really, really impressed with each other!
I hesitated to add "Men" to this list simply because of theme, but given that Orcs and Trolls are noticeably rare hazard strats, and that I'm pretty sure Lego and Gim were also counting the number of Southrons they were axing off their elephants, maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all.
Oh, I forgot to ask that if we did this, we should eliminate Lego's still-present DI bonus against his home faction, both to save space and weaken him slightly in that area. Killing 1 MP of Orc will effectively make up for it anyway.
Thoughts?
Frodo
Super Cool Idea for Legolas
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Nerdmeetsyou
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I like this kind of idear much more better...
but then we should remove this +1 marsheling point clause for dwarf factions...
I didn't get the reason for the anyway? or is there anything thematic about that, I don't realize???
maybe make it that way, so he does not depend on hazard strategy:
When Gimli and Legolas are in the same company, each of them may take non-(*) Creatures as trophies like orc and troll leaders. (Marsheling points still count)
but then we should remove this +1 marsheling point clause for dwarf factions...
I didn't get the reason for the anyway? or is there anything thematic about that, I don't realize???
maybe make it that way, so he does not depend on hazard strategy:
When Gimli and Legolas are in the same company, each of them may take non-(*) Creatures as trophies like orc and troll leaders. (Marsheling points still count)
Agree with Boder.
"If in a company with Gimli, they may take defeated creatures as trophies (double the bonus to prowess and direct influence)."
I'd just apply it to all creatures, and remove the bonus MP to Dwarf factions. I'd leave Legolas' bonus to Wood-elves. Legolas and Gimli counted all enemies, and it's overly restrictive to limit it to orcs and men. Unsure on the doubling. If doubled, 2 MPs worth would give a +2 prowess +2 DI, right? Maybe that's ok.
"If in a company with Gimli, they may take defeated creatures as trophies (double the bonus to prowess and direct influence)."
I'd just apply it to all creatures, and remove the bonus MP to Dwarf factions. I'd leave Legolas' bonus to Wood-elves. Legolas and Gimli counted all enemies, and it's overly restrictive to limit it to orcs and men. Unsure on the doubling. If doubled, 2 MPs worth would give a +2 prowess +2 DI, right? Maybe that's ok.
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Thorsten the Traveller
- Ex Council Chairman
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Frodo, you really read my mind on this one!
If we give trophy ability to all non * creatures and double bonus though, they could get very powerful indeed if there's no max., to the point where opponent quickly decides to stop playing creatures.
We could also add that trophies must be equally divided if possible, though that is a bit tricky. Maybe: if one has less trophies than the other, he must face the first strike regardless of status? that's real rivalry! Would be cool, and can be very useful!
Also DI is not very appropiate for heroes when it comes to trophies, unless it can be used only vs. one another. I mean, Eomer will say: "I would cut off your head master dwarf, since it's grown a bit too tall."
Killing a few orcs doesn't count in the eyes of other heroes.
Why not say 'if in company with Gimli, both get +1 prowess' as a base, because that would be a thematic reflection, and justifies using Lego's high mind more. Then just give normal bonus to trophies. Or either skip the DI or make it DI versus Gimli/Legolas only, idea being that one uses his trophies to show off against the other, thus controlling him eventually.
If we give trophy ability to all non * creatures and double bonus though, they could get very powerful indeed if there's no max., to the point where opponent quickly decides to stop playing creatures.
We could also add that trophies must be equally divided if possible, though that is a bit tricky. Maybe: if one has less trophies than the other, he must face the first strike regardless of status? that's real rivalry! Would be cool, and can be very useful!
Also DI is not very appropiate for heroes when it comes to trophies, unless it can be used only vs. one another. I mean, Eomer will say: "I would cut off your head master dwarf, since it's grown a bit too tall."
Killing a few orcs doesn't count in the eyes of other heroes.Why not say 'if in company with Gimli, both get +1 prowess' as a base, because that would be a thematic reflection, and justifies using Lego's high mind more. Then just give normal bonus to trophies. Or either skip the DI or make it DI versus Gimli/Legolas only, idea being that one uses his trophies to show off against the other, thus controlling him eventually.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Legolas (V)
Unique. 7 Mind.
+1 prowess against Orcs. +1 direct influence against Dwarves and
Dwarf factions. If in a company with Gimli, that company cannot be targeted by Unhappy Blows, your Dwarf factions are worth +1 MPs, and each of them may take defeated creatures as trophies. If one of them has less trophy MPs, he must face the first strike of every attack regardless of status.
No need to say non-* creatures, since detainment attacks (and creatures) cannot be defeated [Lidless Eye Rules] and trophy prowess bonuses are limited to +9 [LE Rules]. Since you are doubling the numerical bonus, 2 MP on someone would give them +2 DI and +2 prowess. We should keep in mind that most decks don’t achieve a lot of kill points anyway. I don’t mind keeping the DI against all characters because in Tolkien’s world the process of a warrior in battle was definitely a factor in their influence over other men, hence cards like Threats, etc. Sure Eomer might still hate Gimli but he would at least be impressed. Besides, Gimli has 2 DI built in and there’s no reason for Bard Bowman to follow him right off the bat either. I believe the reasoning behind the Dwarf-faction bonus is that Legolas became interested in seeing all the places Gimli wanted to take him too and he became closer to Gimli himself. So these factions can count on a deeper alliance, or understanding at least, with the Elves because of what Vastor once called their “Great Friendship.” At any rate, I am reluctant to eliminate the faction bonus because it gives the resource player something to design a deck around that hasn’t been done before (all dwarf factions). Do we really need the Wood-elves bonus? It takes up space but also goes against the Dwarf-faction theme.
Frodo
Unique. 7 Mind.
+1 prowess against Orcs. +1 direct influence against Dwarves and
Dwarf factions. If in a company with Gimli, that company cannot be targeted by Unhappy Blows, your Dwarf factions are worth +1 MPs, and each of them may take defeated creatures as trophies. If one of them has less trophy MPs, he must face the first strike of every attack regardless of status.
No need to say non-* creatures, since detainment attacks (and creatures) cannot be defeated [Lidless Eye Rules] and trophy prowess bonuses are limited to +9 [LE Rules]. Since you are doubling the numerical bonus, 2 MP on someone would give them +2 DI and +2 prowess. We should keep in mind that most decks don’t achieve a lot of kill points anyway. I don’t mind keeping the DI against all characters because in Tolkien’s world the process of a warrior in battle was definitely a factor in their influence over other men, hence cards like Threats, etc. Sure Eomer might still hate Gimli but he would at least be impressed. Besides, Gimli has 2 DI built in and there’s no reason for Bard Bowman to follow him right off the bat either. I believe the reasoning behind the Dwarf-faction bonus is that Legolas became interested in seeing all the places Gimli wanted to take him too and he became closer to Gimli himself. So these factions can count on a deeper alliance, or understanding at least, with the Elves because of what Vastor once called their “Great Friendship.” At any rate, I am reluctant to eliminate the faction bonus because it gives the resource player something to design a deck around that hasn’t been done before (all dwarf factions). Do we really need the Wood-elves bonus? It takes up space but also goes against the Dwarf-faction theme.
Frodo
Oops, good point Jambo. So actually these guys can not get that large at all--9 prow, even if they have a weapon!
**UPDATE** I just tried a game vs. BTook with these new rules for Legolas. It worked pretty reasonably; he was playing the broken Scimitars strategy and whaled on me with Men (Pirates, Corsairs, and Assassins). Gimli killed one Corsair early, and that +2 DI enabled him to hold both Bard and Annalena. But that was all the trophies I got.
The most interesting ability was the one Thorsten suggested. It meant that for the rest of the game, Lego could take auto-attacks, for instance, even if tapped. Not too broken, I think. One semi-strong ability though was that BTook could no longer target anyone in my company except Legolas with his Assassins!! This might be a bit strong, no? We could reword the card to say whoever has less trophies must take a strike from any attack "with more than one strike." But perhaps this isn't necessary...
I also tried the new rules for Half an Eye. It *did* help a bit with hand cramp. I recommend adapting them.
Frodo
**UPDATE** I just tried a game vs. BTook with these new rules for Legolas. It worked pretty reasonably; he was playing the broken Scimitars strategy and whaled on me with Men (Pirates, Corsairs, and Assassins). Gimli killed one Corsair early, and that +2 DI enabled him to hold both Bard and Annalena. But that was all the trophies I got.
The most interesting ability was the one Thorsten suggested. It meant that for the rest of the game, Lego could take auto-attacks, for instance, even if tapped. Not too broken, I think. One semi-strong ability though was that BTook could no longer target anyone in my company except Legolas with his Assassins!! This might be a bit strong, no? We could reword the card to say whoever has less trophies must take a strike from any attack "with more than one strike." But perhaps this isn't necessary...
I also tried the new rules for Half an Eye. It *did* help a bit with hand cramp. I recommend adapting them.
Frodo
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Nerdmeetsyou
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I think the bonus should not be doubled...
I don't see the reason therefor....
Why do we have to cramp all this ablities on legolas... so he even gets an additional mind usw....
why don't we just make a card for gimli too and split the abilities between them?????
like:
Legolas (V)
Unique. 6 Mind.
+1 prowess against Orcs. +1 direct influence against Dwarves and
Dwarf factions. If in a company with gimli each of them may take defeated creatures as trophies. If one of them has less trophy MPs, he must face the first strike of every attack regardless of status.
Gimli (V)
Uniqu. 6 Mind
+1 prowess against orcs.(+2 if with legolas). +1 direct influence against Elves and elf factions. If in a company with Legolas, that company cannot be targeted by Unhappy Blows and your Dwarf factions are worth +1 MPs,
I don't see the reason therefor....
Why do we have to cramp all this ablities on legolas... so he even gets an additional mind usw....
why don't we just make a card for gimli too and split the abilities between them?????
like:
Legolas (V)
Unique. 6 Mind.
+1 prowess against Orcs. +1 direct influence against Dwarves and
Dwarf factions. If in a company with gimli each of them may take defeated creatures as trophies. If one of them has less trophy MPs, he must face the first strike of every attack regardless of status.
Gimli (V)
Uniqu. 6 Mind
+1 prowess against orcs.(+2 if with legolas). +1 direct influence against Elves and elf factions. If in a company with Legolas, that company cannot be targeted by Unhappy Blows and your Dwarf factions are worth +1 MPs,
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Thorsten the Traveller
- Ex Council Chairman
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Nice!
heroes can't take trophies normally, so why would the trophy rule, including the 4 mp max., apply to heroes? I'm not sure that's a given.
agreed on the faction bonus, Lego doesn't need the Woodelves. Besides, Gimli has bonus vs. elf factions
can make the ability: 'if either one of them has less trophy mp's, he must face first strike of any attack that doesn't choose characters, regardless of status.' That makes thematic sense. I like this assassin/cave drake deceiver, but it will mean your guy will die sooner too, and it might be very good if you manage to buff one with trophies and the other with a good weapon. (then you have to keep swapping weapons, funny)
heroes can't take trophies normally, so why would the trophy rule, including the 4 mp max., apply to heroes? I'm not sure that's a given.
agreed on the faction bonus, Lego doesn't need the Woodelves. Besides, Gimli has bonus vs. elf factions
can make the ability: 'if either one of them has less trophy mp's, he must face first strike of any attack that doesn't choose characters, regardless of status.' That makes thematic sense. I like this assassin/cave drake deceiver, but it will mean your guy will die sooner too, and it might be very good if you manage to buff one with trophies and the other with a good weapon. (then you have to keep swapping weapons, funny)
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
I really like this idea! 
Anyway, I think trophies ability is good enough as normal, it's unnecessary to make it doubled or unlimited. On the other hand, if we split the new stuff in 2 virtual character cards, which is a nice idea as well, we must keep 7-mind for Legolas, cause he still is warrior/ranger/scout.
Anyway, I think trophies ability is good enough as normal, it's unnecessary to make it doubled or unlimited. On the other hand, if we split the new stuff in 2 virtual character cards, which is a nice idea as well, we must keep 7-mind for Legolas, cause he still is warrior/ranger/scout.
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Let them come! There is one dwarf yet in Moria that still draws breath!
Let them come! There is one dwarf yet in Moria that still draws breath!
Yep, my vote would be for keeping it simple. Just enable the trophy taking without doubling. I don't really see a need to virtualise Gimli if all the text can be included on Legolas. One thing to consider - what would happen to the trophies if Legolas and Gimli should split or one of them die? Discard?
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Nerdmeetsyou
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no... I would say they keep them....
(why should they loose their expririence)
(why should they loose their expririence)
If Lego leaves Gimli, the creatures would stay as trophies since that's what they were played as, but Lego's text would not longer apply (meaning, the ability to TAKE trophies would be lost, and also any doubling).
It's not so much text that we can't keep it on all on Legolas, in my opinion. Trophy rules are defined in the rulebook as being limited to 9 prowess, 4 MPS or more do the same, so this would apply to these hero characters as well (otherwise the trophy rule would be completely undefined). I love Thorsten's revision to the taking of strikes.
If everyone really feels the trophy bonus shouldn't be doubled, that's fine with me, but I'd like to make one last argument in favor of doubling: A) Minions who get trophies do not have their bonuses doubled, true, but they are usually facing larger MP creatures; so their trophy bonus still goes up quickly; and look how little impact these trophy bonuses have had in the minion game! So why not make the idea of trophies for heroes cooler too, or at least not make them weaker than for minions? B) the bonuses are limited to +4 DI/prow anyway, and to split that bonus per hero, if we allow doubling, still requires 8 MP of normal kill points total, which is not very common... in fact, I've hardly ever seen that happen! C) the resource player who sees an advantage from seeking trophy points will put some effort into actually trying to KILL creatures rather than doing what most smart, sane, and safe meccg players would do who are not playing Big Hero... conceal everything!
Frodo
It's not so much text that we can't keep it on all on Legolas, in my opinion. Trophy rules are defined in the rulebook as being limited to 9 prowess, 4 MPS or more do the same, so this would apply to these hero characters as well (otherwise the trophy rule would be completely undefined). I love Thorsten's revision to the taking of strikes.
If everyone really feels the trophy bonus shouldn't be doubled, that's fine with me, but I'd like to make one last argument in favor of doubling: A) Minions who get trophies do not have their bonuses doubled, true, but they are usually facing larger MP creatures; so their trophy bonus still goes up quickly; and look how little impact these trophy bonuses have had in the minion game! So why not make the idea of trophies for heroes cooler too, or at least not make them weaker than for minions? B) the bonuses are limited to +4 DI/prow anyway, and to split that bonus per hero, if we allow doubling, still requires 8 MP of normal kill points total, which is not very common... in fact, I've hardly ever seen that happen! C) the resource player who sees an advantage from seeking trophy points will put some effort into actually trying to KILL creatures rather than doing what most smart, sane, and safe meccg players would do who are not playing Big Hero... conceal everything!
Frodo
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Well, I did a few law courses back in the day, and no lawyer would hesitate to run a case against you. If condition 1 (trophies are for minion companies only) doesn't exist, that means that the other conditions can't be taken to still be automatically valid either. However, I'm not the one in favor of turning meccg into a book of law, you know that, and I never even thought about the judge certificate for a second, so I won't complain here.Trophy rules are defined in the rulebook as being limited to 9 prowess, 4 MPS or more do the same, so this would apply to these hero characters as well
8 mp's worth of creature kills isn't that much either. 3 assassins and 2 cave drakes would do it, a designed deck can kill the assassins pretty easily. So, the effect of doubling would also be that your opponent might get scared and not play creatures, I'm not sure if we would welcome that. (of course if he finds out you're Wizard Flaming every attack he won't play assassins anyway, but that's another matter.)
But, this is actually another reason to limit the strike assignment to creatures that can't choose defender, so you can avoid Lego/Gimli. And as a bonus, even More Alert might get played, who knows!
So then doubling isn't so bad perhaps, I doubt 8 mp's worth of spiders/orcs/undead will be killed.Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.