Theo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:11 am
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:46 pm
But there would NEVER be "an infinite number of declarations of canceling" because non-targeted (non-attack cancellation) cancellation effects are not triggered, they are on-going effect that comes into play once, immediately at resolution. Attack cancellation works differently because it doesn't negate declaration/resolution of an effect.
Can you unpack this/clarify your language more? We have numerous examples of non-targeting effects still triggering on specific targets according to passive condition rules. "Note that cards like Rank Upon Rank
are applied as a passive condition, once an attack of the right type is in play."-CRF
Forewarned is Forearmed ("this attack cannot be cancelled") is NOT a "
card like Rank Upon Rank." The difference is that Rank Upon Rank triggers an action to modify attributes of an attack while Forewarned is Forearmed has no "action" (nothing happens in the game) to be triggered. Instead of
causing activity in the game (ie an action), "this attack cannot be cancelled"
prevents activity in the game. It is a negation effect (eg cancellation/prevention) and doesn't have any action to be triggered by passive conditions. This an on-going effect that is already in play. Negation effects simply "negate an action in a chain of effects," thereby preventing that action from being declared or resolved. This has been the case since the original METW rules were published, long before the rules on passive conditions and even before the Unlimited updates. Negation effects include: "This attack cannot be canceled," "no creature hazards may be played," "automatically cancels any effect___" , "cancels all hazard effects___", etc..
This obviously must be the case otherwise:
(A) the cancelled/prevented actions could still be declared, and potentially other actions could be declared based on that in the same chain of effects, which makes no sense and would let players cycle cards, and
(B) the card doing the cancellation/prevent would not work if played in response due to the delay in triggering from passive conditions.
Theo wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:11 am
If the effects of an ongoing effect are only applied once, then one canceling of the cancel is sufficient to avoid the original cancel effect. If they may be applied more than once, nothing stops them from being applied infinitely many times (other than, in
some but not all cases, their own wording).
You are misunderstanding the difference between "applied" (ie resolved) and declared. And you are also misunderstanding the difference between an "ongoing effect" and a "effect triggered by a passive condition."
Ongoing effects: "this attack cannot be cancelled", "company may not attack another company at this site," etc. There is no activity in the game to be triggered.
Effects triggered by a passive condition: "attacks against your companies are canceled." There is an action. An attack cancellation action. Attacks are different from declared effects. Attacks are created by resolution of a Creature Card/other card. An attack is essentially an ongoing effect where multiple chains of effects can take place before playing a "cancel an attack" effect. Cancelling an attack is an action (just like the cancellation actions of Concealment, etc.).
The "attacks against your companies are canceled" effect of a Roused Dragon is a triggered action (not an ongoing effect) that gets applied once. It must actually be applied, thereby canceling the attack. Otherwise the passive condition would triggered the Roused Dragon's cancellation action again. If it is triggered, Prowess of Age can cancel 1 singular triggered cancellation action. But Prowess of Age is not an on-going effect, it does not say "this attack cannot be cancelled." Therefore, the Roused Dragon's cancellation effect will be triggered a second time, and continue to be triggered by the passive condition
until it is applied. Once it is applied, the attack is cancelled and the effect is not triggered or applied again (the attack is gone). If Prowess of Age said "this attack cannot be cancelled" then it could be used to make the Roused Dragon attack its own player's company, since this would negate the Roused Dragon's triggered cancellation effect.
The effect triggered by a passive condition MUST be applied, but it is not re-applied multiple times. There is a difference between:
"All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes" (applied) and
"All non-agent Man attacks receive + ∞ prowess and + ∞ strikes" = "All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes" + "All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes" + "All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes" . . . "All non-agent Man attacks receive +1 prowess and +1 strikes." (applied an infinite number of times).
The thing is, even though the passive condition still exists, the effect has already been applied. Rank Upon Rank says the attack gets +1 prowess and +1 strikes. That is all the attack gets, it doesn't get more than that. Similarly, an Ahunt/Roused says that the company faces 1 attack, that is all they face, they don't face more than 1 attack.
The effect might be
triggered by the passive condition more than once, but it is only
applied once.