New to the game and have some questions.

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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:15 pm By your statement -- an active condition of discarding a card does not target the discarded card
I would say so.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:15 pm Discarding Card_B is a typical active condition for some other Action_A of Card_A. If you can't choose Card_B for the discarding action to be played out through (i.e., target Card_B), how would Card_B ever be discarded?
You can choose Card_B (if there are multiple eligible) to discarding as condition of Action_A.
Without associated babble [for the discarding action to be played out through (i.e., target Card_B)].
If something is target of Action_A it must be present both at declaration and at resolution of Action_A.
If something must be both discarded at declaration of Action_A and is target of Action_A then you have a recipe for defunct Action_A (mission impossible).
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:15 pm It's clear that active conditions can have targets. Tapping a card, discarding a card, targeting a card -- these Active Condition activities are all actions. ALL active conditions either HAVE targets or ARE targets.
It's clear that you are not trying (even briefly) to check what sense make the things you are writing, before posting them.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 pm
an active condition of discarding a card does not target the discarded card
I would say so.
That's just incorrect. There is no way to perform any action without a target.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:15 pm Discarding Card_B is a typical active condition for some other Action_A of Card_A. If you can't choose Card_B for the discarding action to be played out through (i.e., target Card_B), how would Card_B ever be discarded?
You can choose Card_B (if there are multiple eligible) to discarding as condition of Action_A.
Without associated babble [for the discarding action to be played out through (i.e., target Card_B)].
I guess you didn't go back and read the sections that I mentioned. Otherwise you would have noticed the official "babble" on targeting.

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If Card_B is discarded by a discarding Action_B, then Card_B IS the target of the discard Action_B. This is true whether the discarding action is an active condition of another action or if the discarding action is declared and resolved in the chain of effects.

This is a basic principle of the game. This is it is incorrect to say "discarding a card does not target the discarded card."
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 pm (1) If something is target of Action_A it must be present both at declaration and at resolution of Action_A.
(2) If something must be both discarded at declaration of Action_A and is target of Action_A then you have a recipe for defunct Action_A (mission impossible).
You must be referring to Annotation 8. But you are missing an important detail from the Annotations on Active Conditions that will explain your "mission impossible." Just read it a couple times. Let me know if you notice an important detail.

HINT: check the list of sections that I posted.Even Brandobras knows it
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Bandobras Took
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:15 pm Brandobras, instead of picking and choosing two line out of context, go back and read "Events" (MELE p. 40, 41) "Actions and Card Play" (MELE p. 50), "Timing Rules" (MELE, p. 69), and the Glossary on Action, Declaring an Action, Resolving an Action, Chain of Effects, Targeting, Active Condition, and Passive Condition (MELE 87-91). It's only a few pages but it is dense.

By your statement -- an active condition of discarding a card does not target the discarded card :?:
Exactly.
Discarding Card_B is a typical active condition for some other Action_A of Card_A. If you can't choose Card_B for the discarding action to be played out through (i.e., target Card_B), how would Card_B ever be discarded?
Discarding is not an action. It is an active condition. You choose the card to be discarded by the active condition by . . . choosing the card. It is not a target.
It's clear that active conditions can have targets. Tapping a card, discarding a card, targeting a card -- these Active Condition activities are all actions. ALL active conditions either HAVE targets or ARE targets.
No.
Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action.
I'll even go further:
Cards which affect an entire class of other cards do not target (e.g., Wake of War).
Spell. Wizard only. All Nazgul events are discarded
Wizard's River Horses, explicitly, by rule, discards events without targeting them.

Targeting is not required to affect any entity in the game. An action which affects an in-game entity likely targets it, according to the restrictions on targeting. But active conditions are explicitly not actions.
Also, Active conditions ARE actions except they are defined to not be actions for the purpose of declaring and resolving actions in a chain of effects.
No. They are prerequisites for actions. The definition for actions explicitly says they are not actions by noting the key difference.
Merely requiring presence of some card "in play" without targeting the card can be a condition, but it is not an active condition.
CRF, Active Conditions wrote:An active condition must be in play or established when the action requiring it is declared.
The requirement that a card be in play most assuredly is an active condition. Or we can just go to the definition of a Condition, Active:
A prerequisite for an action actively made by a player. Typically this involves tapping a character, discarding an item, or having a character of a particular skill in play.
Please stop making up rules. Active conditions are specifically stated not to be actions in the definition of Action. Having a particular card in play is listed as an example of an active condition. Cards can be affected without being targeted.
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Konrad Klar
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Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out.

This means as along it is not known what is "entity through which a card or effect will be played out", it is not known what is Targeting. And vice versa.

If someone is seeing everywhere entities through which a card or effect will be played out, he is seeing everywhere targets.
If each entity associated with action (tapped, discarded at declaration) is perceived as entity through which a card or effect will be played out, each will be considered a target.

Someone may not care that conditions "discard X at declaration" and "X must be present both at declaration and at resolution" cannot be reconciled. Maybe seldom ask himself about purpose in game of some terms.
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CDavis7M
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With how you guys understand the rules its no wonder you guys see so many issues in the cards.

There is consistency. Try to find it. You can do it!
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote:.
If each entity associated with action (tapped, discarded at declaration) is perceived as entity through which a card or effect will be played out, each will be considered a target.


Only the one that gets tapped or discarded is THE target. Of course, there maybe be more than one valid target.
Konrad Klar wrote:.
conditions "discard X at declaration" and "X must be present both at declaration and at resolution".
They can be reconciled. Don't summarize. Read the Glossary on Active Conditions and the CRF Annotations on Active Conditions again.
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Bandobras Took
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Annotation 6: If an action requires an entity to be discarded as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be discarded when the action is declared; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action.
Annotation 7: If any other active condition for an action does not exist when the action is resolved, the action has no effect; if the action was playing a card from your hand, it is discarded.
Reconcile away. There isn't much reconciliation there that I can see.
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CDavis7M
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