WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul)

[CDavis7M]

I guess I'll repeat myself. "Applicable" modifications are those that have their requirements met. If the modification (the listed + or - to the check) requires the influencing character to be a certain race to get the modification and the character is not that race then the modification doesn't apply to the influence attempt - it's not applicable. If a faction is listed as the requirement to get a modification, it must be in play for the corresponding modification to be "applicable". It's not that complicated than that in my interpretation.

The language difference for influencing an opponent's faction between MELE ("modifications") vs METW ("'Standard Modifications'") is a result of plain modifications being added to MELE (like on a dragon faction). There is no need to look to the Balrog summary (which can easily be interpreted as a description of the normal process and not a requirement).

Regardless, the rules for influencing an opponent's faction say to use the standard modifications/modifications on the card. This is an exception to the rules on playing factions. The Balrog rules on playing factions don't clarify an exception to the rule for playing factions. If alignment mattered, the MELE rules would tell you to only use modifications if they match your alignment. And they don't say this.



To me, the rules for influencing factions are simple. Just read the card being influenced use it's modifications.

I'm done here though. Nothing more to expand on. This is a good point to bring up next round. See you there.

[Bandobras Took]

To influence an opponent's faction, you must make an influence check as outlined above. However, the following exceptions apply:
· Instead of a mind attribute, the influence check uses the value usually required to bring the faction into play (as given on the faction's card).

Good thing that when you influence your own factions, you use the faction's mind attribute.

Either that, or the exceptions are to the process outlined above, which is the one for influencing an opponent's non-follower character. If only the rules gave us some hint that this was the case.

I agree that you're done here.

[CDavis7M]

Good thing that when you influence your own factions, you use the faction's mind attribute.

Either that, or the exceptions are to the process outlined above, which is the one for influencing an opponent's non-follower character. If only the rules gave us some hint that this was the case.

Under any interpretation of "exception" - the rules for Playing Factions don't apply to the Rules for Influencing an Opponent's Faction. Your argument is that they do. But the rules don't say that they do. ("exception" being interpreted as (A) exception to the rules for influencing away an opponent's character AND/OR (B) exception to the rules for influence attempts when playing factions).

The clear rule staring us in the face is - The influence check is modified by any of the faction’s applicable Standard Modifications (as
given on the faction’s card). It couldn't be any more clear. There is nothing in the rules indicated as being an exception to this rule.

If your "rule" on Wizard vs. Ringwraith influence attempts (i.e., that a wizard cannot use faction-based standard modifications found on minion factions,etc.) actually was correct, then that rule would be found in "Using MELE with METW, Section 9 · influence" on page 85 of the MELE Rules. It is not there. All of the rule changes for Wizard vs Ringwraith influence attempts are on page 85. If it's not on page 85 then it is not a rule for Wizard vs. Ringwraith influence attempts.

"Using MELE with METW, Section 9 · Influence" says that influence attempts for Wizard vs. Ringwraith are the same as always except for (A) -5 to the check and (B) you may reveal a manifestation of the influenced faction. There is NO third bullet saying that Wizard's do not get Standard Modifications based on factions in play when influencing a minion faction.

You're scavenged misinterpretation is an affront to the developers. But yes, let's hear your rationale for why the developer would have scattered the fragments of your secret cross-align "rule" across several pages instead of just adding a bullet to "Using MELE with METW, Section 9 · Influence," which is the "appropriate" section for such a rule.

I agree that you're done here.

Guess I wasn't.

One of us has actually read the rules, pays attention to the organization structure, and notices the links and expansions across the corresponding section headers in the I. Starter Rules, II. Standard Rules, III. Optional Rules, and IV. Rules for Using MELE with METW.

The other one of us is a Ctrl+F Wizard.

[Theo]

I haven't tried to keep up with everything transpiring word for word. I think the quote I'm adding below is still relevant, but correct me if not and I'll redact.

There are simply no rules that a Wizard player can follow that allow them to interpret (for any effect) the meaning of standard modifications which are based on the presence of other factions in play.

Except the rules for influencing an opponent's factions on METW p. 60 mentioned above. I put it in bold to emphasis this important point. But it seems like you missed it.
...

STANDARD MODIFICATIONS
Most faction cards list some “standard modifications” to the influence check based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players.

I would say that this is more of a description of faction cards than a "rule" that provides allowances or restrictions to be follow. But still, a wizard would need their own rule to get standard modifications based on the factions in play. And wizards DO have their own rule that lets them use the standard modification that is found on the card when they are influencing an opponent's faction. This rule is found in the METW rules book (standard rules, influence, influencing an opponent's faction, p. 60).

Yes, Wizards can use "standard modifications for influencing opponent's factions. But the parallel definition of the phrase for Wizards is:

Clarification: Most faction cards list some “standard modifications” to the influence check based only upon the race of the character that was tapped to make the influence check.

This is the only way for wizards to interpret "standard modifications" phrase, just as your MELE quote is the only way for minions to interpret "standard modifications" phrase. Neither group has access to the other's interpretation. The Balrog summary only reinforces this.

It sounds like your interpreting the instance of ""Standard Modifications" (as given on the faction's card)" as a new independent interpretation. While possible, the probability of that being the correct parse of that snippet is far lower in my mind than the parenthetical being a partial reminder; it does not overrule the earlier specificity that the check must be based on race, no more than a general rule about e.g. being able to play some type of card overrules (without further explicitness) restrictions about being able to play a more specific card of that type.

[CDavis7M]

So, instead of adding a 3rd bullet to the Using MELE with METW section on influencing cross-alignment factions, the developer of the game expects a player to read the name of a faction on the card and pretend that they don't know how to interpret it?

MELE descriptions take precedence in discrepancies between METW and MELE, only sometimes? Rules for Ringwraiths become limitations on Wizards?

The rules say to use the modifications on the card, and they don't say not to use them in wizard vs Ringwraith, but a player must forget what to do with a faction name on a minion faction because of bullet formatting indicating how minion cards work?

[Theo]

I'm not sure what you're saying they are forgetting. You are implying that there is something for them to remember. There isn't.

Wrong 'droids.

[CDavis7M]

If there were other instances of rules for Ringwraiths being secret limitations on Wizards, then the argument would make more sense.

If cross alignment standard modifications didn't work, why didn't the Digest ruling mention that? Why would the Digest day that Wizard's use the faction-based standard modifications on the minion faction card if they actually didn't?

Is an undead attack keyed to Shadow-lands only detainment if played by a Ringwraith player? No

Can a Wizard player play METW Lure of Nature on Orcs? No.

[Theo]

Is an undead attack keyed to Shadow-lands only detainment if played by a Ringwraith player? No

Can a Wizard player play METW Lure of Nature on Orcs? No.

(Ignoring CoL already solving Lure of Nature: "The mechanics of any given card will be determined from the most recent English printing (as well as from official errata and the official rulings).")

Mirroring...

Is an undead attack played against a Wizard detainment if keyed to Shadow-lands? No

Can METW Lure of Nature be played on a Fallen-wizard player's Orc? No.

--

This section is probably more in depth than most people care about. But as long as we're throwing attempts at comprehensive interpretations around...

I wonder whether the crux of the issue is how one interprets:

When one player is a Ringwraith and his opponent is a Wizard, play proceeds normally for each player within the limitations outlined in this section.

Keeping in mind:

Should a discrepancy arise between an aspect of the MELE and the METW rules, the MELE rules take precedence as they were written with refinements in language and organization.

Why the apparent above contradiction of MELE rules affecting Wizards? One observation are that these are both hazard examples. The logic I would want to use based on "play preceeding normally for each player" is that as the hazard player you must observe both your rules about what you can do as well as (when you affect an opponent's cards) their rules about their cards being affect-able. Contradictions go to MELE rules. (However, let's note for later that contradictions are different than differences, the word used to describe bulleted sections in MELE Starter and Standard rules!)

Literally, the implication of the phrasing of the first quote above is that Wizards can play Lure of Nature on a FW's Orc, but minion players can't. An undead attack played against a Wizard by a Wizard is never detainment based on what it is keyed to, but if it is played by a minion it could be. Perhaps this is how we "should" be playing. It would parallel a few other present resolutions that are based on what players are in the game.

Instead, let's assume that it isn't how we should be playing. So something needs to change. Let me revise my logic into only the affected entities of an effect need to have their player's rules observed for rules governing effects, and further amend/addend the USING MELE WITH METW passage in the way that has historically been done by CoE to something to the effect of: "All players apply MELE rules (including contradictions) that aren't different than METW rules, but apply rules differences to only their respective player types." I believe everything checks out:

• Undead attacks played by a Wizard keyed to shadow-land against a Ringwraith are detainment.
• Wizard players could not play METW Lure of Nature on Orcs.
• Undead attacks played by a Ringwraith keyed to a shadow-land against a Wizard are not detainment.
• METW Lure of Nature CAN be played on a Fallen-wizard player's Orc. Shoot. At least there is the newer printing.

Under this interpretation that is at least consistent for the first three cases, the MELE rule stating that standard modifications are "based only upon what other factions are already in play for both players." is marked as a rules difference.

So the above framing would suggest that the thing being affected, the Wizard or minion player's roll, only gets the Wizard or minion player's standard modifications (respectively).

I would be curious if you could create a similar interpretation that would solve the first three cases and suggest that either player could use both standard modifications. Maybe you already did above and I skimmed too much, in which case help point me to it

[edit: realized Lure of Nature CAN be played on a Fallen-wizard player's Orc even with my latest hypothesis.]

[CDavis7M]

The bullets merely indicate changes. They provide no additional meaning to the rules. If bullets were removed, the rules would be the same.

Yes, Part IV states "passages containing Ringwraith only rules are marked with a line of bullets as a sidebar." However, this statement on bullets is not consistent with their usage. The bullets indicate "MELE only rules," but not necessarily "Ringwraith only rules."

Whether a statement or section of MELE is particular to playing a Ringwraith (but not a Wizard) can be discerned from the immediate context or at least from the section as whole.

[Theo]

I cannot agree. There would be no objective way to differentiate discrepancies (in which MELE rules take precedence) vs. simply differences.

[Bandobras Took]

So, you lied through your teeth when you said you were done, and are now insisting that "Make an influence check as outlined above, with the following exceptions:"

means

This is an exception to the rules on playing factions.

This is either falsehood or idiocy on your part, and I'm leaning toward the latter.

One of us has actually read the rules

I agree, and you seem to be under the delusion that it's you, despite the above.

The influence check is modified by any of the faction’s applicable Standard Modifications (as given on the faction’s card).

And you have yet to come up with a good reason for why a Ringwraith-only rule should be applicable to a Wizard. Or why a Ringwraith would use a METW rule.

the rules for Playing Factions don't apply to the Rules for Influencing an Opponent's Faction. Your argument is that they do.

My argument is that the rules for influencing an opponent's faction don't tell you which standard modifications are applicable. Guess which rules do?

("exception" being interpreted as (A) exception to the rules for influencing away an opponent's character AND/OR (B) exception to the rules for influence attempts when playing factions)

Except that's not what the rules on influencing an opponent's faction say. Really, quit making stuff up. The rules on influencing an opponent's faction state that they are exceptions to the rules for influencing an opponent's character. Nothing more. Adding stuff to the rules that isn't there is

an affront to the developers.

What is there is that one must use applicable standard modifications. There's only one place to find out which Standard Modifications apply.

There is NO third bullet saying that Wizard's do not get Standard Modifications based on factions in play when influencing a minion faction.

Why would there have to be? Wizards have no rule telling them to do so.

One of us has actually read the rules, pays attention to the organization structure, and notices the links and expansions across the corresponding section headers in the I. Starter Rules, II. Standard Rules, III. Optional Rules, and IV. Rules for Using MELE with METW.

And has come to the conclusion that:

* ICE was kidding when they said that Wizards do not use RW only rules
* ICE was mistaken when they decided to bullet the rules for influencing factions in MELE
* RWs get to use whatever METW rules they want
* ICE went out of their way to deliberately write nonsense when they were penning the Balrog Rules Summary, despite clarifying and rectifying other aspects of the game

And the ironclad evidence for this?

A claim that the rules for influencing an opponent's faction are exceptions to the rules for faction play, despite the rules saying no such thing.

To influence an opponent's faction, you must make an influence check as outlined above. However, the following exceptions apply:

No, wait. You're right! That statement about being exceptions to the rules for faction play is right there between the lower-case "y" and the colon.

Come to think of it, a colon is a good source for your argument.

[CDavis7M]

No one knew how to determine which Standard Modifications were applicable to influencing an opponent's factions until the rules for playing factions in the Balrog were printed?

You could see through a brick wall in time (as they say in Bree).

[Konrad Klar]

And has come to the conclusion that:

* ICE was kidding when they said that Wizards do not use RW only rules
* ICE was mistaken when they decided to bullet the rules for influencing factions in MELE
* RWs get to use whatever METW rules they want
* ICE went out of their way to deliberately write nonsense when they were penning the Balrog Rules Summary, despite clarifying and rectifying other aspects of the game

* ICE was mistaken when they decided to bullet the rules for influencing factions in MELE

ICE did not address issue precisely. Hit near butt.

What differentiates Standard Modifications of minion factions from Standard Modifications of hero factions is that first refer to a presence of other factions in play, while second to a race of influencing character.

Without respective MELE chapter, player would expect that Easterlings or Black Trolls refers to race of influencing character.
But instead making the chapter specific to alignment of faction card*, ICE made it Ringwraith player specific.

The error (or difference) is not exposed at all in minion vs minion game.
It is somehow exposed in hero vs minion game and fully exposed in game in which FW player participates.

*) I'm saying about of alignment of faction card, not about alignment of faction.
Beasts of the Wood may be played as minion faction but the card is hero faction card.
BTW. its Standard Modifications are exceptional.

[Bandobras Took]

There's only one place to find out which Standard Modifications apply.

No one knew how to determine which Standard Modifications were applicable to influencing an opponent's factions until the rules for playing factions in the Balrog were printed?

You're walking proof that some people still don't know how, so it's not that incredible.

To determine applicable standard modifications, you look at the rules on influencing factions. In METW and MELE, it's called "Bringing Factions Into Play." In MEBA, it's "Playing A Faction." There is no other place that gives rules for determining which standard modifications apply (acknowledging that the METW/MELE could be viewed as descriptive rather than prescriptive, were it not for MEBA removing doubt as to what is meant).

Unless I'm mistaken. I have yet to see such a thing, let alone one that indicates that METW, MELE and MEBA are incorrect in dividing it by player/character alignment, but it could be out there, somewhere.

It just has yet to show up in this thread. Every single example so far has said to use the METW and/or MELE rules to determine applicable standard modifications, with the exception of MEBA, which agrees with them, anyway.

[Bandobras Took]

And has come to the conclusion that:

* ICE was kidding when they said that Wizards do not use RW only rules
* ICE was mistaken when they decided to bullet the rules for influencing factions in MELE
* RWs get to use whatever METW rules they want
* ICE went out of their way to deliberately write nonsense when they were penning the Balrog Rules Summary, despite clarifying and rectifying other aspects of the game

* ICE was mistaken when they decided to bullet the rules for influencing factions in MELE

ICE did not address issue precisely. Hit near butt.

What differentiates Standard Modifications of minion factions from Standard Modifications of hero factions is that first refer to a presence of other factions in play, while second to a race of influencing character.

Without respective MELE chapter, player would expect that Easterlings or Black Trolls refers to race of influencing character.
But instead making the chapter specific to alignment of faction card*, ICE made it Ringwraith player specific.

The error (or difference) is not exposed at all in minion vs minion game.
It is somehow exposed in hero vs minion game and fully exposed in game in which FW player participates.

I don't believe it's an error. MEBA clarifies by saying "any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions)".

As mentioned above, factions are not heroes. A faction may be a hero faction, but multiple factions are not called "heroes," they are called "hero factions." "Heroes" and "minions" must be referring to characters, and it is impossible for Wizards to have minion characters or RWs to have hero characters.