Framsburg (Hero site)

Any rule erratum or clarification submission for the upcoming 2019 ARV should be posted here.
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Sam.Gamdschie
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Regarding the automatic attacks the hero site of Framsburg reads as follows:
... It must normally be playable keyed to a Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-], Shadow-hold [-me_sh-], single Wilderness [-me_wi-], or Shadow-land [-me_sl-].
As it was discussed if a Wild Fell Beast could be played as such AA, but the majority is not convinced of that.
So I want to issue the following erratum to this text as follows:
... It must normally be playable keyed to a Ruins & Lairs [-me_rl-], a Shadow-hold [-me_sh-], a single Wilderness [-me_wi-], or a single Shadow-land [-me_sl-].
Be side that, also a discussion is going on, what "normally" means for AAs: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3658
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Shapeshifter
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I support this erratum (it is an erratum as I see it). Compare to the clarification on Elven Cloak:
Elven Cloak
Can cancel a strike keyed to one, two or more Wilderness.
Edit 2019-03-26: Rewrote my post because what I wrote here yesterday was partially nonsense.
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rezwits
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As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
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CDavis7M
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Perhaps this card should receive a clarification conditioned upon the other vote. And any other affected cards. Simply so that a player trying to play Fell Beast at Framsburg can easily lookup any updated listing of CoE ruleing when browsing for Framsburg.
dirhaval
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Can Withered Hearth change the SIngle Wilderness symbol on Framsburg to double Wilderness or the Single Shadow-land to Double-Wilderness so to play Trolls from the Mountains? I would allow my opponent to do that with that creativity flowing from the icy streams of the Iron Mountains.
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Theo
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Do you mean Withered Lands on the automatic attack Wilderness? No. There is no way to legally target that symbol, since it only occurs when the automatic attack is resolved.
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CDavis7M
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The simple answer: No, because Withered Lands targets Region Types and the [-me_wi-] symbol in the card text of Framsburg is not a Region Type itself, just a reference to Region Types on creatures (see MELE p.26 and the color insert).
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Bandobras Took
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:19 pm The simple answer: No, because Withered Lands targets Region Types and the [-me_wi-] symbol in the card text of Framsburg is not a Region Type itself, just a reference to Region Types on creatures (see MELE p.26 and the color insert).
Agreed. And very well put.
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dirhaval
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Good points. Withered Lands not Withered Hearth; reading that Dragon submission confused me. I was told not to leave a live dragon out of the plans if you live near one.
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CDavis7M
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Shapeshifter wrote:I support this erratum (it is an erratum as I see it). Compare to the clarification on Elven Cloak:
Elven Cloak
Can cancel a strike keyed to one, two or more Wilderness.
Edit 2019-03-26: Rewrote my post because what I wrote here yesterday was partially nonsense.
Funny about Elven Cloak. I get why the statement about multiple symbols was made.

But for creatures, it seems like most (all?) of the "deep wilderness" creatures, and even Wild Fell Beast, actually include a separate limitation in the card text requiring multiple region type in the site path.

So, my thought is that you technically still key the creature to one region type, but that two symbols in the site path are also required.

Meaning, Elven Cloak could cancel Winged Cold Drake but Wild Fell Beast could not be an automatic attack at Framsburg (it cannot be played because 2 Shadow-lands in the site path are required").

Update: I think this was true in METW and METD, but then in MELE rules were added for keying to multiple region types. And the MELE double region type creatures (Giant Spiders, Non-Spider Giants, etc.) lost the site path requirement in their text.

Also, Wild Fell Beast says: "Two Shadow-lands in site path are required." So at least its own text would prevent it from being played as an Automatic Attack at Framsburg.

----------

Welcome again to 1997
ICE wrote:From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [METW] questions again...
Date: 1996/12/06

>1) Can Wild Fell Beast be keyed to Rhudaur if Angmar Arises is out? Normally
>the beast needs *two* shadow-lands to be played. (I assume yes, because you
>can cancel attacks requiring two wildernesseseses with an elven cloak)

No, Wild Fell Beast is keyed to two shadow-lands, not one, so Angmar Arises
will not work.
ICE wrote:From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [METW] question
Date: 1997/04/23

>Angmar Arises, Reaching Shadow and a third MEDM card
>state that a creature keyable to shadow-lands may be
>keyed to certain regions (depending on which card you
>use). My question is:
>
>Can Wild Fell Beast or Winged Fire-drake be keyed to
>these regions, stated on the cards I mentioned above,
>although they are normally keyable to double shadow-land?

Nope.
ICE wrote:From: ich...@spamblock.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [MECCG] Morgul Rats & Under-deeps
Date: 1997/09/01

>We ran into this situation last night:
>
>Many under-deep sites state that the hazard player may play a "non-unique
>hazard creature normally keyed to a Shadow-hold" as a second automatic
>attack. My opponent John tried to use Morgul Rats as this second attack.
>Would that be legal?? Morgul-rats reads: "Only playable at a Shadow-hold or
>at a Dark-hold, and only if a character in target company is wounded OR
>Doors of Night is in play." I argued that it could not be used based on
>the other requirements for playing Morgul-rats, neither of which was
>currently fulfilled. Does anyone have a ruling on this?

No, Morgul-rats are not normally keyed to a shadow-hold, they are keyed
to a shadow-hold under special conditions.
So no, Wild Fell Beast and Morgul Rats are not "normally be playable keyed to a shadow-land" as required by Framsburg.
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