Long Dark Reach + Stealth

[Konrad Klar]

And what is more important they are not brought into play (they was played before).

[Bandobras Took]

Hmm.. CRF?

Then how about this entry:

The creature does not count against the hazard limit. A creature must be played if there is one available.

Hmmm ... the errata isn't clear enough. It doesn't specify that you take and play the creature, u just GUESS that.

The errata makes it very clear that the creature is considered to be played.

If some card is not in play and you are bringing it in play is not it equivalent of playing from hand?

I would say no. The Balrog, for example, plays characters directly from the sideboard; they never go to the player's hand.

These override the normal rules. Long Dark Reach by errata, the Balrog by Balrog-specific rules.

I'm not sure it makes a grand difference, but better to try and be precise in order to avoid possible confusion.

[melkor_morgoth75]

I'm not convinced. Errata says that if one is available it must be played but i think that it covers the fact that i (as hazard player) could have choosen to avoid creature to attack ...

It doesn't say that i play the creature as if it were in my hand. And that's the problem with stealth ...

mm75

[Konrad Klar]

So to be more precise: is not Balrog's ability equivalent of taking character from DP and playing it from hand?

What is important here? Fact that card that was not in play is brought into play, or act of physical holding card in hand by short time?

[Bandobras Took]

I think that the general rule is that cards are played from the hand, and that specific cards/rules provide other methods for being played.

I'm not arguing that such cards are not played. But a card put on the table that did not come from your hand must specify that it is played or it is not considered to have been played according to the definition in the CRF.

Therefore, since the Errata on Long Dark Reach you found is fairly unequivocal in stating that the creature is played, Stealth protects against it. But the creature at no time is in your hand any more than the other cards you reveal are. Play is accomplished though an effect of Long Dark Reach which overrides the normal rules.

[|Highwayman|]

I would say that playing a card is a process of putting the card into play from anywhere (be it hand normally; discard pile, sideboard or even play deck with appropriate cards)

.... so Stealth would cancel the Long Dark Reach creature


I know the problem isn't solved as of now, but I've got a new question for you guys:

Spying out the Land
minion resource - short-event
Magic. Spirit-magic. Playable on a spirit-magic-using character during the organization phase. Opponent may reveal to you any hazards from his hand, and only those hazards can be played during the character company's movement/hazard phase. Unless he is a Ringwraith, character makes a corruption check modified by -3.

only revealed hazards may be played, so let's say I showed my opponent that I have Long Dark Reach in hand, so when he moves I can play it - what happens then? can the Long Dark Reach creature attack, or it can't since it wasn't revealed to my opponent when he played Spying out the Land
same goes for Exhalation of Decay

[Konrad Klar]

Whatever will be established for Stealth - Long Dark Reach interaction in that matter, will be valid also for interaction between Spying out the Land and creatures revealed as effect of Long Dark Reach.

[Wacho]

I think LDR gets around Stealth. The creature you reveal isn't really played. Note the text on LDR says that one revealed creature immediately attacks the company. Normally, when a creature is played there is a two-step process first you play the creature and your opponent can respond by lowering the hazard limit or whatever and then once the play of the creature resolves the attack is created and you can respond to the attack. In this case the first step never happens. Once LDR resolves the next action is the attack itself. There is no time where the creature is played.

The CRF entry seems to me just an example of the imprecise language ICE used sometimes. It probably should read something like "A creature must attack if one is available."

[Bandobras Took]

But the governing principle still has to be take them as they're written, not as how we think they were meant to be written.

[Konrad Klar]

Note the text on LDR says that one revealed creature immediately attacks the company. Normally, when a creature is played there is a two-step process first you play the creature and your opponent can respond by lowering the hazard limit or whatever and then once the play of the creature resolves the attack is created and you can respond to the attack.

I'd say that creature is not normally played. You can respond to LDR.

[melkor_morgoth75]

I think LDR gets around Stealth. The creature you reveal isn't really played. Note the text on LDR says that one revealed creature immediately attacks the company. Normally, when a creature is played there is a two-step process first you play the creature and your opponent can respond by lowering the hazard limit or whatever and then once the play of the creature resolves the attack is created and you can respond to the attack. In this case the first step never happens. Once LDR resolves the next action is the attack itself. There is no time where the creature is played.

The CRF entry seems to me just an example of the imprecise language ICE used sometimes. It probably should read something like "A creature must attack if one is available."

Yeah ... it's more or less my point. The CRF meant to specify that if u find a creature it MUST attack the company. You, as hazard player, can't avoid its attack (to prevent it from being defeated ad example). It doesn't cover how the creatures are played.

I'm still convinced of my point. Stealth prevents creatures to be played. LDR is NOT a creature so i can play it and any revealed creatures are NOT played by me but they attacks immediately (effect by the card, not creatures played by player).

mm75

[Konrad Klar]

You, as hazard player, can't avoid its attack (to prevent it from being defeated ad example). It doesn't cover how the creatures are played.

It is good that you (as hazard player) have at least choice of playing or not playing of Long Dark Reach...
Seriously, some actions are optional, some other are mandatory.
How about not counting creature against the hazard limit? Is not counting against HL part of playing of hazard card? I so, why such exception is mentioned on Exhalation of Deacay, In Great Wrath, and on Long Dark Reach (in last case as clarification in CRF)? Meaningless text?

[melkor_morgoth75]

You, as hazard player, can't avoid its attack (to prevent it from being defeated ad example). It doesn't cover how the creatures are played.

It is good that you (as hazard player) have at least choice of playing or not playing of Long Dark Reach...
Seriously, some actions are optional, some other are mandatory.
How about not counting creature against the hazard limit? Is not counting against HL part of playing of hazard card? I so, why such exception is mentioned on Exhalation of Deacay, In Great Wrath, and on Long Dark Reach (in last case as clarification in CRF)? Meaningless text?

Sorry mate i don't see your point here. Not counting against HL is part of text of the hazard, but i don't see the point

mm75

[Leon]

I would say as well that Stealth does not prevent Long Dark Reach attacks. The CRF that is quoted clarifies that the attack must go through if a creature is revealed and I would not use that as a support here, cause this clearly is another point.

As to the text of not counting against the hazard limit, I am very glad that it is stated here to avoid confusion and I would not say it is pointless.

[melkor_morgoth75]

As to the text of not counting against the hazard limit, I am very glad that it is stated here to avoid confusion and I would not say it is pointless.

Yep, i'm not saying it is pointless (it's great to have a clarification here regarding that). I'm saying i don't see konrad's point with what we are speaking about (preventing stealth).

mm75