New NetRep Team

[CDavis7M]

We've moved this announcement to the NetRep's Corner section of the forum, and I've added some personal information for those who don't know me.

Here you said: "1) Give an official answer to the many rules question that arise during our games, in the form of new Ruling Digests." And then repeated it in the new post.

This is confusing. Are you going to be answering rules questions on the Spanish forum and whatsapp and then publishing a digest of them here? Or what is the "digest" a digest of? Would be nice to know where the discussions are happening if it's going to be "official"

By the way, if you want to be official you could post your answers to Ichabod's official NetRep test. Or not. I thought it was easy. I could certainly come up with a harder quiz.

Also, it seems like you don't want to learn about what the "digests" are, or what a "NetRep" did/does, or how the CRF worked and what it contains, but feel free to ask later and I can help you.

And perhaps there is someone who has already gone though the unofficial (CoE) rulings and identified which were wrong and the reasons in the rules why. And maybe there is someone who has already gone through the CRF and noted which parts are obsolete. But if you already have known this stuff for 20 years and are the best fit as Marcos asserts then I am wondering why you kept it all hidden from the players for so long. Would have been nice to not have to spend the time to read everything figure it out for myself. Even better if I could have taken credit for it.

[marcos]

dude, narcissism is a serious problem.

[CDavis7M]

dude, narcissism is a serious problem.

Things are not looking good for the CoE if this indicates the standard of English comprehension in the netrep team.

"Narcissism " is another word you should look up in a dictionary. I found one that should suit you: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... narcissism

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Look, I'm happy for people to spend time promoting the game and I do the same myself. So I'm happy for efforts. So thanks for whatever you've done even though you belittle and dismiss my efforts. But from what I can see in this post, the "NetRep" team seems to not know where or how ICE made rulings, not know how or why those rulings appeared in the CRF, not know what "digests" are, and there is no evidence of experience in explaining the rules, and apparently their plan is to repeat or copy and paste work that's already been done by other people.

All putting aside the fact the CoE has a history of not bothering to follow their own charter.

[marcos]

dude, narcissism is a serious problem.

Things are not looking good for the CoE if this indicates the standard of English comprehension in the netrep team.

"Narcissism " is another word you should look up in a dictionary. I found one that should suit you: https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries. ... narcissism

-----

Look, I'm happy for people to spend time promoting the game and I do the same myself. So I'm happy for efforts. So thanks for whatever you've done even though you belittle and dismiss my efforts. But from what I can see in this post, the "NetRep" team seems to not know where or how ICE made rulings, not know how or why those rulings appeared in the CRF, not know what "digests" are, and there is no evidence of experience in explaining the rules, and apparently their plan is to repeat or copy and paste work that's already been done by other people.

All putting aside the fact the CoE has a history of not bothering to follow their own charter.

I am well aware of what it means, and how such a person behaves. But thanks for the link anyways, since other relevant members of the community might find it revealing

[CDavis7M]

I am well aware of what it means, and how such a person behaves. But thanks for the link anyways, since other relevant members of the community might find it revealing

But you were not aware because you used it incorrectly.

[marcos]

If you say so, sure

[CDavis7M]

It matters because the words in the MECCG rulesbook follow their plain English meaning. Few of the game terms are strictly formalized.

So when you see confusion over "target," "action," "effect," "attempt," you know where to look.

[CDavis7M]

Putting aside the fact that the digests aren't all of the rulings, just those from the unofficial place, the fact that Van didn't intend for the rulings to go in the CRF, and the fact that he wasn't authorized to change the CRF...

I went back and looked at the digests mentioned by in the original post and didn't find any of them to add much that was not already in the CRF, besides simply reading card text or explaining if a rule or card text doesn't exist. But the issue with these rulings (and others) is that several of them rulings are wrong. And some mistakes were caught but not all. And even where some of the rulings give the correct gameplay, the rationale and understanding of the rules is off-base, especially for FW rules. Which maybe shows why the CoE NetReps had some of this same confusion.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing work.

[CDavis7M]

The fact that you appeared online in the forums around 2018 or so, doesn't mean that other people didn't contribute to the game in the past. Where were you in the past 20 years? what are your contributions to the community other than endless topics that leads to nowhere? What did you do to make things better?

I just noticed that 11 years ago you proposed: (1) Proofreading electronic rules documents, (2) Writing "How to Teach MECCG" Guides, (3) Writing "Beginners' FAQ" Guides, (4) Writing "How to be a Good Judge" Guides, (5) Compiling a Universal Rulesbook, (6) Further Projects to be added if the need arises. https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/v ... 142&t=1579

How's that going? Did it lead to nowhere? I guess at least not enough time to start (1) because there are several errors in the rules on https://meccg.es/en/rules/. I emailed the webmaster to correct an error in the MELE rules but it's guess not appreciated.

Maybe you can proofread those rules. Would be good practice to read the rules. Let me know when you think you've finished and I'll double check my notes.

[marcos]

I don't have anything to prove to you... Why should i have to let you know when i finish something? You are not even a CoE member, nor even a member of the NetRep team, nor even a candidate...

Letting my dog know what i do seems more important to me

[CDavis7M]

You are not even a CoE member, nor even a member of the NetRep team, nor even a candidate...

Neither are you. You weren't appointed by the proper procedures of the CoE Charter and there are currently no active members of Council anyway.

I'm just pointing out the fact that you haven't done anything in 11 years for the "JCP" yet had the nerve to call me out -- asking what I've done in 4 years when I'm just a member of the forum.

[marcos]

but then again, i am not asking anyone to reply back to me, as if i were of some importance

[Theo]

Manuel, thanks for sharing. I think your heart is in the right place. I'm not as confident in your rules work or vision.

These seem poor omens to me:

1. The announcement was moved to a closed board to specifically prevent responses. How does this represent "open-mindedness?"
2. In response to initially (I thought) well stated concerns, the "NetRep team" response is (1) essentially refusing to respond, (2) name calling and other character attacks.
3. The actual concerns stated by CDavis7M.
4. What were chosen as credentials, with no further contextualizing:
   1. "Back in the days of Mark Alfano as NetRep/MECCG contributor... I was named a level 2 judge and became part of the NetRep team as an advisor." The approach the Alfano (and predecessor CoE netrep) era took was precisely what has made such a mess of things on the global scale, and as credentials seem to be communicating "more mess please." The leadership strategy might be characterized as, "We're in charge. Do what we say." That's not a credential that holds weight to me. I understand that certain council members believe such an approach is preferred over understanding, but to me it wouldn't actually be playing MECCG, it would be playing a variant by someone that doesn't understand actual MECCG (such that that aren't even properly naming it a variant).
   2. "Some of my achievements as a competitive player:" Again, this messaging seems to be emphasizing the mentality that promoted the CoE netrep messes the first four times around. I myself am interested in being a competitive player, but that would never be on my list for expressing expertise in rules nuances. Knowing how to play the basic game along with mastering the meta is a disparate skillset. My concern here is that this credential indicates more of a variant-promoting mentality motivated by streamlining competitive play or influencing the meta-game strategy, again without naming it a variant. Noble in its own right, perhaps, but not a solid basis for a rich, cohesive interpretation (and only occasionally-necessary interpolation and extrapolation) of ICE rules that I think the community deserves.

"One [misguided ruling authority] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make."

[Thuarval]

As a player I would want an arbiter other than my opponent.

Absolutely this. I played in US Nationals back in... 95/96? against Ichabod, who, despite my (rules-based) protestations ruled in the instance that he could indeed move to Mount Doom with Starter Movement and dunk the Ring... which he did. Lol. I wasn't as amused then as I am now.

[Manuel]

Manuel, thanks for sharing. I think your heart is in the right place. I'm not as confident in your rules work or vision.

These seem poor omens to me:

1. The announcement was moved to a closed board to specifically prevent responses. How does this represent "open-mindedness?"
2. In response to initially (I thought) well stated concerns, the "NetRep team" response is (1) essentially refusing to respond, (2) name calling and other character attacks.
3. The actual concerns stated by CDavis7M.
4. What were chosen as credentials, with no further contextualizing:
   1. "Back in the days of Mark Alfano as NetRep/MECCG contributor... I was named a level 2 judge and became part of the NetRep team as an advisor." The approach the Alfano (and predecessor CoE netrep) era took was precisely what has made such a mess of things on the global scale, and as credentials seem to be communicating "more mess please." The leadership strategy might be characterized as, "We're in charge. Do what we say." That's not a credential that holds weight to me. I understand that certain council members believe such an approach is preferred over understanding, but to me it wouldn't actually be playing MECCG, it would be playing a variant by someone that doesn't understand actual MECCG (such that that aren't even properly naming it a variant).
   2. "Some of my achievements as a competitive player:" Again, this messaging seems to be emphasizing the mentality that promoted the CoE netrep messes the first four times around. I myself am interested in being a competitive player, but that would never be on my list for expressing expertise in rules nuances. Knowing how to play the basic game along with mastering the meta is a disparate skillset. My concern here is that this credential indicates more of a variant-promoting mentality motivated by streamlining competitive play or influencing the meta-game strategy, again without naming it a variant. Noble in its own right, perhaps, but not a solid basis for a rich, cohesive interpretation (and only occasionally-necessary interpolation and extrapolation) of ICE rules that I think the community deserves.

"One [misguided ruling authority] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make."

Hello Theo and thanks for your input.

I'm currently studying the rules of this game from top to bottom. Of course I did read them in the past, and I've tons of games under my belt in which I've had to consult them, but now I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about, and I know the style of ICE and the correct words so that I am not "inventing" stuff. Hence the academic work on my part. The fact that I was named a judge by Mark Alfano doesn't necessarily mean that I am the same person or even think in the same way.

Having said all this, it'll be impossible to please everyone with any decision on rules that I make. I know that, and I guess anyone could deduct that by reading the discussions in this forum. The community of this game is SO complex rules-wise, there is so much disagreement and tension and long discussions that most people are unable to follow (including me, sometimes) And that makes me wonder if that's the reason why there hasn't been any rules authority (call it NetRep or however you want) during the last 9 years: because knowing that no matter what you do, there will always be loud voices claiming that it's wrong.

I play this game a lot, and I know lots of players too, I've always been in touch with the actual game community: the players that spend much more time playing than arguing about rules. And I know a judge is needed, as Konrad Klar said before me in this same post because whatever the reason (ICE ambiguity, wrong CoE rules, whatever) there are heaps of rules questions during our tournaments. Most players I know are asking for one. I've been asking for one for many years, but since no one has taken a step forward, I've decided (and I've been conviced by others, too) that I should take this responsability.

Funny fact: I still haven't done anything as a NetRep, but there's been one person expressing their doubts about me because he doesn't know me, and another one expressing his doubts because of who I am and where I come from.

I can understand everyone's doubts, but right now the best I can do is accomplish my task as well as I humanly can. All I ask for is some patience and positivity. I'm intending to do a complicated task and I need mental space and peace. If I use my time to discuss absolutely everything in these forums, I'll have none of those, and the community will be left again with no one making certain decisions that could modify their games or their deck building.

I'll do my best; if that is not enough, there will be elections soon. New members of the CoE should be elected and will decide if I should keep up my work or not.

Cheers