[WITHDRAWN] Ford

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Konrad Klar
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The Wizards: Ford
Rarity: Common, Precise: CA1

Resource: Short-event

Playable only at the end of the organization phase. Tap a ranger to prevent opponent from playing hazard creatures keyed to Wilderness [-me_wi-] against the ranger's company. "The sun was already westering as they rode from Edoras...up and down in green country, crossing small swift streams by many fords."-LotRIII
I propose the following erratum:

Ranger only. Playable on company only at the end of the organization phase; tap a ranger. Prevent opponent from playing hazard creatures keyed to Wilderness [-me_wi-] against the ranger's company. "The sun was already westering as they rode from Edoras...up and down in green country, crossing small swift streams by many fords."-LotRIII

Rationale:
To remove unnecessary inner chain of effects, where a part of main effect is a tapping for another effect. In current state "Playable only at the end of the organization phase" is only active condition. Even if at resolution some company would not have an untapped ranger, or there is no company, then... bad luck.
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:30 am To remove unnecessary inner chain of effects, where a part of main effect is a tapping for another effect.
There is no such thing as an "inner chain of effects" in MECCG. The rules never mention such a thing and there is no reason for it to exist in this game.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:30 am Playable on company only at the end of the organization phase; tap a ranger.
The cards of this game aren't written this way and this does not line up with the rules on how cards work. The rules on PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS state "a card is playable only if its effect applies to an existing situation." In Ford, the statement "Playable only at the end of the organization phase" defines the situation in the game when Ford is playable. "tap a ranger" is not a situation within the game. The statement "tap a ranger" should not be included with the applicable situation. I can't find any other resource events that put "tap _____" in the description of the situation where the card is playable. It might come immediately after, but not with it. And it already comes immediately after in Ford...

There seems to be confusion about the difference between the "main effect" and the "price" of the action. This is related to the discussion on Long Grievous Siege where I explained the difference between the "main effect" and the "price". I'll copy that below.

Here, tapping is an action that uses a character such that they cannot be used again. Tapping is an action that restricts the player from tapping the character again to do all sorts of things that are advance the player towards victory in MECCG. Tapping a ranger can never be considered a main effect of the card because it not only does nothing to advance their position in the game's victory conditions, but it actively restricts the player from invoking actions that would help them achieve victory. The tapping of the ranger is a price to be paid for playing the card. It is called an "active condition" because the player actively invokes the tapping action to satisfy the condition that a ranger be tapped.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:30 am Playable only at the end of the organization phase" is only active condition.
By the way, "Playable only at the end of the organization phase" is a condition for playing Ford. It defines the situation in the game that Ford applies to. But it is not an "active condition" because the end of the organization phase is not some action that the player actively invoke to satisfy a condition. The player does not invoke the end of the organization phase so that it will be the end of the organization phase (this doesn't even make sense). Instead, the end of the organization phase is just a situation that happens in the game.

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Previous discussion on Main Effect vs Price:

The phrase "main effect" comes from the "Actions and Active and Passive Conditions" section of the Rules Annotations in the Wizards Companion. The rules annotations describe the "main effect" of an action as opposed to the "price" of the action (the restriction to the player invoking the action). The main effect of a card is different from the price paid to play the card. The term "main" refers to the importance of the effect to the player. The term "price" refers to something expended to endured a condition of achieving a desired objective (the main effect). A restriction to the player invoking the action is the price to be paid for invoking the main effect. These words have meaning that should be recognized.

The player's location deck has a finite number of border-holds in it. Placing a border-hold with Long Grievous Siege expends that border-hold and restricts the player from placing the border-hold for some other purpose. Placing the border-hold is a "price" of playing Long Grievous Siege. Placing the border-hold is not the "main effect" because it is not a desired effect. There is no reason in MECCG why the player would want to have one less border-hold in their location deck.

For Long Grievous Siege, the returning of the faction to its owner's hand, the -5 to influence attempts, and the additional automatic attack are the player's objectives when playing this card. These effects are important ("Main") to the player's victory as they can remove their opponent's marshalling points from play and make it more difficult for the opponent to replay their faction. There are reasons in MECCG why the player wants (desires) these effects.

This is the difference between "main effect" and "price." Long Grievous Siege cannot be played unless the price of placing a border-hold with it is paid. On the other hand, Long Grievous Siege can be played even if there is no faction to remove to their opponent's hand as that is not a price.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:23 pm There is no such thing as an "inner chain of effects" in MECCG. The rules never mention such a thing and there is no reason for it to exist in this game.
Nonetheless it exists, even if not explicitly mentioned. If you deny the existence of chain of effects in middle of resolving the cards like Smoke on the Wind, this is your your choice.
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:23 pm The cards of this game aren't written this way and this does not line up with the rules on how cards work.
See Mathom Lore or Tales of the Hunt.
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:23 pm The rules annotations describe the "main effect" of an action as opposed to the "price" of the action (the restriction to the player invoking the action).
Yea. What is a "price" of Diplomat only? Cost of educating of Diplomat and bringing in into work?
What happens if some card says that it is playable only if Gates of Morning is in play and Gates of Morning is not in play at declaration or at resolution of the card?
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Konrad Klar
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Compare Ford to When I Know Anything or When You Know More.
Texts of the the two latter cards contain phrase "Tap sage to ..." but it is neither part of main effect of the cards, nor their active conditions. Main effect is just tapping a target sage and a site. "Tap sage to ..." is ability that may be used later.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:46 pm Nonetheless it exists, even if not explicitly mentioned. If you deny the existence of chain of effects in middle of resolving the cards like Smoke on the Wind, this is your your choice.
This doesn't need to involve an "inner chain of effects." Smoke on the Wind has a bunch of strike dice rolls, the rules state that dice rolling actions can be targeted, and Annotation 24 states that you can interrupt the actions on a card if its an attack with a bunch of strikes to cancel all strikes of the attack, or cancel individual strikes, or modify the dice rolls, and so on. There does not need to be an "inner chain of effects."

Annotation 24 and the rules on dice roll targeting already allow for Smoke on the Wind to work. "Inner chains of effects" are not needed.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:46 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:23 pm The cards of this game aren't written this way and this does not line up with the rules on how cards work.
See Mathom Lore or Tales of the Hunt.
Good find. Seems like this was done on Mathom Lore and Tales of the Hunt as these are permanent events with activated effects. There needed to be a way to differentiate the cost when playing the card compared to the cost when activating the effect, which is not the case with Ford as a short-event. The proposed change is not so far off, but also not needed.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:46 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:23 pm The rules annotations describe the "main effect" of an action as opposed to the "price" of the action (the restriction to the player invoking the action).
Yea. What is a "price" of Diplomat only? Cost of educating of Diplomat and bringing in into work?
The price of "Diplomat Only" is paid by providing a Diplomat character. This is a game-cost as general influence is finite and it must be spent controlling the Diplomat's mind, restricting the player from controlling other characters that could be used towards achieving victory. A character with the diplomat skill has a higher mind cost than a similar character without the skill.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:46 pm What happens if some card says that it is playable only if Gates of Morning is in play and Gates of Morning is not in play at declaration or at resolution of the card?
If Gates of Morning is not in play at declaration of the card, how was it played?
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:50 pm Compare Ford to When I Know Anything or When You Know More.
Texts of the the two latter cards contain phrase "Tap sage to ..." but it is neither part of main effect of the cards, nor their active conditions. Main effect is just tapping a target sage and a site. "Tap sage to ..." is ability that may be used later.
I've seen confusion about the word "to" before. It's true that the word "to" can indicate a result of a condition but the word "to" is not necessary to define the cost/condition in MECCG. Instead the cost is defined based on whether there is an in-game restriction on the player from invoking actions.

In these cards, "tap sage and site" are costs of the action of playing the card, not main effects. Tapping a sage and a site are never main effects. Costs are typically paid at declaration but some cards specify other timing (at resolution), but that doesn't mean that tapping is not a restriction on the player (a cost). The statement "tap sage to" is a cost of activating the effect.
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Konrad Klar
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1.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:34 am and Annotation 24 states that you can interrupt the actions on a card if its an attack with a bunch of strikes to cancel all strikes of the attack, or cancel individual strikes, or modify the dice rolls, and so on.
Which are not declared in chains of effects?
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:34 am The price of "Diplomat Only" is paid by providing a Diplomat character.
Not by presence? Nuance.
BTW. Does it fit in your actively invoked conditions concept?
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:34 am If Gates of Morning is not in play at declaration of the card, how was it played?
No way. I did not say otherwise.

2.
I have decided to withdraw the proposal. There are other issues with Ford beside unclear border between condition and main effect. Proposal itself is imperfect too. Next try maybe in other time and in other thread.
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