ARV: resources playable at beginning of site phase

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Theo
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The CRF states:
"A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack."

I propose that this be changed to:
"A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic, on-guard creature, and agent attacks, unless that resource directly affects an attack."

The literal wording suggests a restriction that would, e.g., prevent players from effecting an attack from Siege or Doubled Vigilance. While it is possible to interpret the wording to have been meant to only apply in the case of typical site phase procedures, and thus not be applicable to Siege or Doubled Viligance, this proposal is meant to fix all possible ambiguity.

Note that Stench of Mordor could still not be removed at the start of the site phase under this rule.

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Relevant rulings for establishing the intent:
ICE Ruling Digest 91 wrote:>Hazards like Incite/Awaken or Redoubled Force or Doubled Vigilance become way too powerful if one cannot cancel them when played on-guard.

Note that Doubled Vigilance and the Incites could be canceled, since they make another attack.
(absence of correction:)
ICE Ruling Digest 563 wrote: >I don't think playing a short event is doing something that
>requires entering the site. If you can't play WHCTK this way, you
>couldn't for instance play Withdrawn to Mordor on an Agent that
>attacks you with Near to Hear a Whisper either. I am sure there
>are more examples like this. I think the rules say that during the
>site phase a company may do nothing or enter the site and play
>items, allies, factions, certain events that state they are played
>during the site phase. But we're not talking about a company
>here, because there is no company yet. The character you play with
>WHCTK still needs to enter the site in order to score a resource
>though.

Playing We Have Come to Kill cannot be done during the site
phase at a site that is not already in play. In order to play We
Have Come to Kill during the site phase, a company must explore
the site.
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CDavis7M
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If we want to play ARV maybe we should vote on a Council first?

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Theo wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:46 pm The CRF states:
"A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack."
This statement needs to be qualified. It is a bit misleading. It is important to recognize that this ruling comes from the "Turn Sequence Rulings" section of the CRF and the introduction to the CRF specifically states "the Turn Sequence and Rulings by Term sections are specifically considered clarifications to the rules". This means that this ruling on the Site Phase is not the actual rule itself and that it is a clarification of existing rules (The Rules Annotations and the rules on the site phase). It is meant to be helpful. It is not meant to be misinterpreted when taken out of context.
Theo wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:46 pm I propose that this be changed to:
"A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic, on-guard creature, and agent attacks, unless that resource directly affects an attack."
Hmm... well the player already needs to wait to play items, allies, factions, and other resources playable during the site phase until after the Guard and Agent have attacked. Why should the player not be able to play Withdrawn to Mordor or Hidden Knife before facing the agent attack?

My impression is that overcoming the automatic attack is the "cost" of being able to play an item in the site phase and that is why there are such strict restrictions against the player before they have faced it. Guards and Agents not part of the minimum cost.
Theo wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:46 pm The literal wording suggests a restriction that would, e.g., prevent players from effecting an attack from Siege or Doubled Vigilance. While it is possible to interpret the wording to have been meant to only apply in the case of typical site phase procedures, and thus not be applicable to Siege or Doubled Viligance, this proposal is meant to fix all possible ambiguity.
It's not just possible -- the CRF literally tells the player that this restriction is simply a clarification to the rules. The ruling is a response to a question about the site phase not involving Siege or Doubled Vigilance. Of course these attacks can be canceled.

There is even a ruling specifically about Double Vigilance from the same ICE Digest 91 and I'm not sure why you didn't bring it up here even though I mentioned it several times in the discord discussion about your game with Sarma.
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 91
Date: 1998/06/07
Message-ID: <ichabod-0706981324120001@dialin1052.cstone.net>
X-Deja-AN: 360448101
Organization: Iron Crown Enterprises
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc

From: Serge.Dan...@aar.alcatel-alsthom.fr (Serge Danzanvilliers)
[concerning automatic-attacks]
>This ruling is just plain nonsense 😉 If I can discard a Scimitar after
>strikes have been assigned, I should be able to discard a Moon is Dead just
>before strikes are assigned. Why can I play MT during the strike sequence but
>not just before the strike sequence (when I can play concealment) ???


There need to be limits on resource play while facing automatic-attacks
to prevent abuse of certain cards. To be consistent I put the same
restrictions on autos that are on attacks occuring in the middle of
the resolution of a card. Those restrictions only allow the play of
resources outside the strike sequence if they cancel the attack.


>Hazards
>like Incite/Awaken or Redoubled Force or Doubled Vigilance become way too
>powerful if one cannot cancel them when played on-guard.

Note that Doubled Vigilance and the Incites could be canceled, since
they make another attack.


>By the way, what
>about ressources like The Cock C
>Crows (with Gates of Morning) which are not played with a compagny ?

It may not be played, except to cancel a Troll attack.
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Konrad Klar
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CRF also states:
Play of an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site must be
after the company resolves all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks.
So there are different restrictions, one for company's activity in general, other for playing certain resources.
And "all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks" is only trace that says something about order of facing agent and on-guard creature.

The problem of reacting on attacks from Siege, Doubled Vigilance may be addressed generally.

E.g. by:

"If a company faces an attack the company may always play the same resources that could be played when automatic-attack is faced (except from resources affecting only automatic-attacks), unless effect in play specifically forbids it."
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Konrad Klar
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What "ARV" means?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:43 am The problem of reacting on attacks from Siege, Doubled Vigilance may be addressed generally.

E.g. by:

"If a company faces an attack the company may always play the same resources that could be played when automatic-attack is faced (except from resources affecting only automatic-attacks), unless effect in play specifically forbids it."
But there is no problem for the attacks of Siege and Doubled Vigilance.

The rules already state that an attack comprises one or more strike dice rolls and the rules allow for modifications to strike dice rolls (including cancellation of one or more of the strike rolls).

If the game has strike dice rolls, effects can be played to modify the strike check.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:02 am What "ARV" means?
I'm not sure what it is, but it certainly isn't "A" nor is it really "R". Maybe barely a "V."
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:30 pm Why should the player not be able to play Withdrawn to Mordor or Hidden Knife before facing the agent attack?
I think they should be able to play those to affect the attacks (see other proposal). Reminder: this proposal is about not being able to play cards that don't effect the attacks.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:30 pm I'm not sure why you didn't bring it up here even though I mentioned it several times in the discord discussion about your game with Sarma.
You didn't read my original post, it seems.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
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