Bring Our Curses Home & Foes Shall Fall (clarification)

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Konrad Klar
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Proposed clarification:

"If at the start of M/H phase a creature associated with Bring Our Curses Home or Foes Shall Fall could be played under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition. The attack(s) from the creature is (are) then treated as though the creature was played under chosen condition.

Similarly, if a creature is being played according to event that allow to immediately plat the creature under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition.

In both cases a hazard player chooses the condition when the action resolves."

EDIT: Modified the proposal to take into account the cards like Long Dark Reach, Exhalation of Decay, In Great Wrath.
Specifies when the choice has be made.
EDIT2: "Similarly, if a creature is being played according to even that allow to immediately plat the creature under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition."
to
"Similarly, if a creature is being played according to event that allow to immediately plat the creature under multiple possible conditions, a hazard played chooses the condition."
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CDavis7M
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What are you intending the change?

The rules seem clear to me.
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Theo
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If I understand the full motivation, I would suggest different wording for your proposal in the direction of:

"An attack created by Bring Our Curses Home or Foes Shall Fall is treated as being keyed according to the hazard player's choice among possible valid ways to key the creature if it was being played."

I would think this would be a change to the rules (errata on the those cards?), not a clarification. So I probably wouldn't support such a change to preserve ICE's legacy.
CRF wrote:Attacks created by events are not keyed to anything unless specifically stated as being keyed to something on the card.
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:43 am "An attack created by Bring Our Curses Home or Foes Shall Fall is treated as being keyed according to the hazard player's choice among possible valid ways to key the creature if it was being played."
The attack is not created by event, likewise the attack that happens in result of Long Dark reach. A creature attacks.
Some creatures may be played without being keyed, e.g. The Great Goblin. My proposal considers such possibility.

Depending on the way in which a creature is considered as played, different actions may or may not be taken. Bow of Dragon-horn may be used if creature is not keyed to a site; Liquid Fire may be used if creature is keyed to site.
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:50 pm What are you intending the change?

The rules seem clear to me.
Undefined (for me) situation when at the start of M/H phase the associated creature could attack under one of multiple playability conditions.
At the point the creature is not being played, the creature attacks even if hazard player would wish otherwise, and the creature card may be the card of player other than hazard player (in multiplayer game).

The rules you have pointed seem clear but are not sufficient here.
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Theo
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:04 am The attack is not created by event,
Could you explain your reasoning on that? I have no intuition for that point being contested.
MELE wrote:Combat normally occurs when one of three things happens:
• When a creature hazard is played on a company.
• When a company at a site with an automatic-attack decides to attempt to play a resource card at that site (i.e., decides to attempt to enter the site).
• When any other card indicates that a company must face an attack.
Those three cards (BOCH, FSF, LDR) are the third case. No creature hazard is being played; the cards indicate a company must face an attack based on whether the creature could be played (or must face regardless, but the attack is modified based on whether the creature could be played in the case of Long Dark Reach).
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Konrad Klar
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Dark Minions: Bring Our Curses Home
R3 Hazard: Permanent-event

Corruption. Playable on a non-Wizard character whose company is facing a hazard creature attack. Discard this card if no character is eliminated by the attack. If any character is eliminated, place creature's card with this card-creature is considered off to the side. Target character's company faces an attack from creature at the start of each movement/hazard phase if creature is playable. Discard associated creature's card if this card is discarded. Discard this card if associated creature is defeated.


Are "Target character's company faces an attack from creature [...]" , "Discard this card if associated creature is defeated." imprecise?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:04 am The rules you have pointed seem clear but are not sufficient here.
They are entirely sufficient.

BOCH and FSF specify that the creature attacks "if creature is playable." The rules on playing creatures have specific requirements for "keying" the creature: a "hazard creature may only be played against a company if the creature is 'keyed to' the company’s site or site path" and "If a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, you must choose (when you play the creature) one of these conditions that the attack is 'keyed to.'" The player specifying what the creature is "keyed to" is inherent to the playability of the creature.

In order to determine "if creature is playable" for purposes of BOCH and FSF, the creature must be keyed. This should be obvious -- how can playability of the creature be determined if it has not been keyed?
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:39 pm This should be obvious -- how can playability of the creature be determined if it has not been keyed?
...asked a member of company moving from Rivendell to Lorien using starter movement, when attacked by The Great Goblin.

Bring Our Curses Home and Foes Shall Fall just create such situation: a creature attacks without being played.

EDIT: "stsrter" -> "starter"
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:15 am
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:39 pm This should be obvious -- how can playability of the creature be determined if it has not been keyed?
...asked a member of company moving from Rivendell to Lorien using starter movement, when attacked by The Great Goblin.
You're confused about how creatures are played. I copied the rules above. The rules are clear: there are conditions for playing a creature and if a creature satisfies more than one of these conditions, the player must choose which condition the creature is "keyed to." Certain effects and the card text of certain creatures can add playability conditions or change them. However, the creature must still be keyed to some playability condition.

The Great Goblin states "May also be played on a company moving from Rivendell to Lorien or from Lorien to Rivendell. May also be played keyed to High Pass and at sites in High Pass." Accordingly, The Great Goblin can be keyed to the condition of "a company moving from Rivendell to Lorien," or keyed to the condition that the company has High Pass in its site path, etc. It must be keyed to one of these conditions. That is how playing creatures works. If The Great Goblin creature card is declared on a company moving from Rivendell to Lorien and for some reason they end up getting "lost" and not moving to Lorien due to Chance of Being Lost played later in the same chain of effect, then the play of The Great Goblin is negated since it was keyed to the condition of a company moving from Rivendell to Lorien.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:15 am Bring Our Curses Home and Foes Shall Fall just create such situation: a creature attacks without being played.
The creature is not "played" (obviously). But the creature's "playability" is determined and a hazard creature may only be played against a company if the creature is "keyed." Determining playability of creatures for BOCH and FSF necessarily requires the creature to be keyed.

The game works.
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Konrad Klar
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The Dragons: Gothmog
R2 Hazard: Creature

Unique. Troll. One strike. May also be played following an Orc or Troll attack in a [-me_sl-] or [-me_sh-] . "There they had been mastered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lietenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray.."-LotRV
CRF, Errata (Cards), Gothmog wrote:Gothmog is not keyed to anything, the Orc or Troll he is played after must be keyed to
a Shadow-land or Dark-domain.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:29 pm The game works.
You may piss on how the game works, as you are used to do, but at least Gothmog, according to CRF, may be played without being keyed.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:09 pm
The Dragons: Gothmog
R2 Hazard: Creature

Unique. Troll. One strike. May also be played following an Orc or Troll attack in a [-me_sl-] or [-me_sh-] . "There they had been mastered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lietenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray.."-LotRV
CRF, Errata (Cards), Gothmog wrote:Gothmog is not keyed to anything, the Orc or Troll he is played after must be keyed to
a Shadow-land or Dark-domain.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:29 pm The game works.
You may piss on how the game works, as you are used to do, but at least Gothmog, according to CRF, may be played without being keyed.
Again, you're confusing yourself and maybe others. Your misunderstanding of the CRF shows poor reading comprehension despite adequate decoding.

The CRF is not stating that "Gothmog is not keyed" at all because clearly the rules do not allow for a creature to be played without being "keyed." The entire purpose of "keying" creatures is to allow for the play of a creature card to be negated by removing a specific playability condition without the need to negate all of the creature's playability conditions. The CRF statement just means that Gothmog is not keyed to anything that can be changed, so Gothmog is not keyed to anything that can be negated, so Gothmog is not keyed to anything that matters, so Gothmog is not keyed to anything. The CRF statement is technically wrong but the meaning should be clear in context.

When Gothmog is played after the proper Orc attack, this means that Gothmog can be keyed to the condition that there was "an Orc or Troll attack in a Shadow-land or Shadow-hold." Since there is no possibility of negating this condition, it can be said that "Gothmog is not keyed to anything" as Ichabod said in the CRF ruling. Ichabod is just using the same phrase he used when describing attacks created by events, which are not keyed (only creatures are keyed). No harm no foul.

And don't forget that such CRF statements are merely secondary rulings, they are not the primary rules themselves. This statement on Gothmog in the CRF does not change the rules on keying creatures.

The game works. I'm not the one pissing on it.
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Konrad Klar
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Regardless of anything Fuji mountain still stands.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 pm The CRF is not stating that "Gothmog is not keyed" at all because clearly the rules do not allow for a creature to be played without being "keyed."
Hard times for The Hunt and The Great Hunt users.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:13 am
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:41 pm The CRF is not stating that "Gothmog is not keyed" at all because clearly the rules do not allow for a creature to be played without being "keyed."
Hard times for The Hunt and The Great Hunt users.
There is no problem. Those cards do not rely on the playability of the creatures. The creature is revealed and it attacks.
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Konrad Klar
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...and because only revealed (not played), it is immune to Ready to His Will, Forewarned is Forearmed, Riddling Talk.
Unless it appears in play by act of revealing it.
:?:
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CDavis7M
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There are lots of situations where a card is in play without ever having been "played." There's no problem with the cards you mentioned and The Hunt/Great Hunt.
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