Annotation 26a

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
Post Reply
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

"Effects of card played on other card and limited to the other card are applied as last and in order in which they came into play"

Example of situation where the rule would be applicable and problems that it solves:

Moria with Nature's Revenge, Rebuild the Town, Mischief in a Mean Way (all played in that order, of course).
Witch-king of Angmar is in play as long-event.

If not the rule then according to Annotation 26, hazard player could choose any order of effect and the copy of Moria would be effectively be [-me_rl-], [-me_bh-], or Wizardhaven.

Bag End with Chambers in the Royal Court is in play, News of the Shire is stored.
If not the rule then according to Annotation 26, hazard player could choose any order of effect and the copy of Bag End would be either [-me_bh-], or Wizardhaven.

Especially first example shows situation that is not intended in my opinion.

For refference:
Annotation 26: If at the start of a player's movement/hazard phase, there are multiple
effects in play such that their net effect depends on the order they are applied, the
player who is currently not taking his turn (i.e., the hazard player) decides the order in
which they are to be applied. Once this interpretation is established, all further actions
are applied in the order they are resolved for the rest of the turn.
EDIT:
"Effects of cards played on other cards and limited to the other cards are applied as last and in order in which they came into play"
to
"Effects of card played on other card and limited to the other card are applied as last and in order in which they came into play"
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 am Moria with Nature's Revenge, Rebuild the Town, Mischief in a Mean Way (all played in that order, of course).
Witch-king of Angmar is in play as long-event.

If not the rule then according to Annotation 26, hazard player could choose any order of effect and the copy of Moria would be effectively be [-me_rl-], [-me_bh-], or Wizardhaven.
This is not how Annotation 26 works. The Hazard player could not choose the order in this way.

Annotation 26 is used to determine the order of applying effects. The first 3 cards listed above (NR,RtT, and MiaMW) have already had their effects applied to Moria and those effects are only applied once. Those 3 cards do not have effects that get applied to different targets (using passive condition). The hazard player cannot go back in time and re-decide the order of applying those effects.

Annotation 26 only works with effects that are applied to different targets. If 2 effects would be applied at the same time, then annotation 26 is used. This way the hazard player actually can decide the order of applying these new effects. Annotation 26 would be used when 2 effects would both be applied at the same time.
Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 am Bag End with Chambers in the Royal Court is in play, News of the Shire is stored.
If not the rule then according to Annotation 26, hazard player could choose any order of effect and the copy of Bag End would be either [-me_bh-], or Wizardhaven.
Again, Annotation 26 is not used here because the effects of Chambers in the Royal Court are not being re-applied, they have already been applied once and that is all.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Nature's Revenge, although played on a site, creates effects not limited to the site.
It affects all versions of the site.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:58 pm Nature's Revenge, although played on a site, creates effects not limited to the site.
It affects all versions of the site.
Oh, so it's not actually an ""Effects of cards played on other cards and limited to the other cards" ?

And besides, the point is that the effects of Nature's Revenge have already been applied to the site with Rebuild the Town and Mischief in a Mean Way. The effects of Nature's Revenge aren't applied again to that same site, and so Annotation 26 doesn't get applied in that situation.

Only when 2 effects would be applied at the same time does Annotation 26 govern.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Right.
Only Rebuild the Town, Mischief in a Mean Way would be affected by Annotation 26a.

EDIT: Rights > Right
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:56 pm Only Rebuild the Town, Mischief in a Mean Way would be affected by Annotation 26a.
But you said:
Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 am Moria with Nature's Revenge, Rebuild the Town, Mischief in a Mean Way (all played in that order, of course).
If they were "played in that order" then there is no timing issue. One card is played, another is played...
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:56 pm Oh, so it's not actually an ""Effects of cards played on other cards and limited to the other cards" ?
It is not.
Rebuild The town is played on other card and its effect is applied only to the other card.
Nature's Revenge is played on other card and its effect is not applied only applied to the other card.

Anyway I will change the text of proposal to:

"Effects of card played on other card and limited to the other card are applied as last and in order in which they came into play"
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:58 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:56 pm Only Rebuild the Town, Mischief in a Mean Way would be affected by Annotation 26a.
But you said:
Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:11 am Moria with Nature's Revenge, Rebuild the Town, Mischief in a Mean Way (all played in that order, of course).
If they were "played in that order" then there is no timing issue. One card is played, another is played...
I will remove "(all played in that order, of course)." from the example.
It is meaningless in what order Nature's Revenge has been played. As in case of moment of storing of News of the Shire.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Sorry I WILL NOT REMOVE "(all played in that order, of course).", because Rebuild the Town could not be played on Moria if it will not become/be treated as Ruins&Lairs earlier.

Nonetheless:

It is meaningless in what order Nature's Revenge has been played. As in case of moment of storing of News of the Shire.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

So this is basically a "nanny-rule" that changes nothing? It's basically saying: "You already played these cards in order causing their effects to applied, It is clear from the cards which order they were applied. So please actually look at your cards and remember what effects are in play instead of just making stuff up."

What about a rule requiring the player to actually read the card text? That might be really helpful.
What about a rule requiring the player to check every other card in play? Not just a "card played on other card and limited to the other card"
What about a rule requiring the player to know which play deck is theirs? This is probably important.

----------

By the way, this is still not how annotation 26 works, and it does not reflect the current rules of the game:
"If not the rule then according to Annotation 26, hazard player could choose any order of effect and the copy of Moria would be effectively be [-me_rl-], [-me_bh-], or Wizardhaven."

The problem with many of your proposals is that they misunderstand the rules, casting doubt on how they actually work. And then sometimes the supposed fixes actually cause other problems where there were none.

Better to just understand that, NO, the hazard player could NOT just choose any order of effect and the copy of Moria would be effectively be [-me_rl-], [-me_bh-], or Wizardhaven, because those effects have ALREADY been applied to Moria.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Order is:

A rule.
Understanding of the rule.

If some rule does not specify its objects clearly, it may be misunderstood.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “CoE Rules & Errata Community Proposals”