Incorrect and non-ratified CoE rulings that contradict the existing ICE rulings and the Rules

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 97 wrote: A Merrier World and Alatar's kill MP effect do not affect killed Roused Dragons or MPs gained from CvCC.
This goes against the CRF entry on Dragons that was added in 1998 along with many other rulings for Fallen-wizards. The entry specifically relates to Fallen-wizards defeating roused Dragons. According to the CRF, the kill MPs gained by defeating a Roused Dragon count for MPs as if they were defeated hazard creatures for purposes of A Merrier World and Alatar's MP effect -- you get full MP for the Roused Dragon kill.
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] CRF 11: Changes only
Date: 1998/04/08

Company
@ A hero company is Wizard player's company, or a Fallen-wizard's company
that has no Orcs or Trolls. A minion company is a Ringwraith player's
company, or a Balrog player's company. An overt company is a company with
Orcs and/or Trolls in it. Note that some allies can make a company overt,
but Half-orcs do not.


Dragons
@ If you defeat the attack from a Dragon manifestation, you get kill
marshalling points from the faction as if you had defeated a creature.



Fallen-wizard
@ The white hand symbol on the Fallen-wizard card is that Fallen-wizard's
general influence once he is revealed. Prior to that, his general influence
is 20.
@ A Fallen-wizard may use a minion resource to cancel the automatic-attack at
a hero site, and vice versa.
@ Fallen-wizards may not play characters with more than five mind, but if
they have one in play the character is not discarded.
@ A Fallen-wizard is at -5 for influence attempts against a Ringwraith, but
not against a Wizard.
@ Fallen-wizards may not use starter movement, but they may use any other
form of movement.
@ Fallen-wizards use Ringwraith rules for agents.
@ You may not declare yourself as a specific Fallen-wizard unless you have
his card in your deck.
@ Fallen-wizards can have a character with more than five mind, they just
can't start with one or play one.
@ For starting companies, minor items come into play after characters, so
they cannot affect a character's mind for the purpose of playing him.
@ When a site is replaced with a site of the opposite alignment, the new site
comes into play in the same orientation as the other site.
@ You may use minion or hero resources to affect the automatic-attack at a
site, regardless of the site's alignment.
@ If any version of a site is in play or in your discard pile, you may not
play another version of that site.
@ Fallen-wizards may recieve one extra MP for factions played on a leader.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 1 wrote:4. "Is it legal to have a pencil and paper during tournament play to record your opponent's cards (e.g., for
purposes of cards like the Hunt, Riddling Talk, etc.)?"
*** No.
This is incorrect. The rules allow you to use pencil and paper to make records for purposes of keeping a running totaling marshalling points. The tournament policy and tournament rulings do not change this rule. However, the rules do not allow you to record cards for other purposes, like The Hunt or Riddling Talk.
METW p. 10 / MELE p. 7 Rules wrote:1 THE VICTORY CONDITIONS
THE FREE COUNCIL / THE AUDIENCE WITH SAURON
...
Marshalling points are printed on the top left corner of the cards that award them.
Note: You may find it useful to use pencil and paper or extra dice to keep a running total of marshalling points.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 1 wrote:6. The was a question regarding the playability of a minion One Ring with a hero company and whether
it's +1 corruption to all characters in the company would be in effect.
Wim generously researched and wrote:
"- You can test for it: 'normal requirements to play' ask for a gold ring and the right test only.
- You would indeed not suffer the extra 1 cp, as all bonuses and special abilities are ignored. "
This is incorrect. A hero company cannot play a minion One Ring as a result of a ring test. This is because "Hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources." In the example given, a hero item (the gold ring) is being used as a condition ("Playable only with a Gold Ring and after a test indicates The One Ring") for a minion resource (the minion One Ring). The hero gold ring item cannot be a condition for playing a minion version of The One Ring. A hero company may not test a minion gold ring item because testing is a special ability of the ring and "All bonuses and special abilities are ignored."
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CDavis7M
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Farmer Maggot edition:
CoE 19 - Min wrote:a) If my company "teleports" using Farmer Maggot against an assassin's attack, what happens with the
two remaining attacks ?
*** They fizzle.

b) What if you use a card such as Forewarned is Forearmed or Unabated in Malice to cancel the cancelling
ability of Farmer Maggot? Does this cancel Farmer Maggot?
*** Cancelling an attack is an additional after-effect of Farmer Maggot. Just because an attack can't be cancelled
due to certain cards, doesn't mean that you can't teleport with Farmer Maggot. The attack won't be cancelled, as in
the case of Forewarned at Ettenmoors and Unabated, but the company will have already teleported, thus they are
no longer there to face the attack
.
The rules do not require that the company still be at a particular site after the attack has already been created and is currently being faced. The player and/or Netrep appear to be abusing Farmer Maggot.

Farmer Maggot is from Against the Shadow. The hero resources in Against the Shadow were designed to enhance Wizard versus Ringwraith games. Farmer Maggot is intended to be used to escape from your opponent's companies. It is not intended to be used to escape from an Assassin, or escape after Unabated is revealed on-guard, or to avoid an uncancellable attack, or anything like that. The card text and rules do not provide for this use case.
Site Phase: (2) If the site has an automatic-attack, it attacks the company. The attack is resolved normally (see pages 28-34).
The rules on the site phase do not require the company to still be at the site in order to resolve the automatic attack. And Section 7 Combat on MELE pages 28-34 does have any requirement for the company to be at a particular site to face an attack.

If Farmer Maggot is used against an Assassin, they will still have to face the 2nd and 3rd attacks. If Farmer Maggot is used on an uncancellable attack, the company will still face the (automatic) attack because the card was not designed to be used this way.
CoE 58 - Martin wrote:So, Farmer Maggot vs. Unabated in Malice (card text below):
Galdor is at the Barrow-downs on which an Unabated in Malice is
played. Farmor Maggot is in play. Galdor goes in, faces the attack and
instead of fighting it he lets Farmer Maggot take him to Old Forest.
Farmer Maggot states the attack is now cancelled. Unabated in Malice
states in return that the first attempt to cancel the attack instead
cancel the Unabated. So IMHO Galdor finds himself still facing the 1@8
undead attack. Is this correct?
*** That is correct, though the movement effect of Farmer Maggot still
resolves successfully. Consider it a parting shot by the Barrow Wights.
This is correct but it should have addressed the previous ruling.
CoE 116 - Alfano wrote:(5) Dave Barton asked: If you teleport using Farmer Maggot while facing an auto-attack, and you end up
at a different site that also has an auto-attack (e.g., weathertop), what happens (assuming you want to do
stuff at weathertop)? There seem to be three options:
(a) You may play stuff immediately. You've already faced your auto-attacks for the turn, so there's no need
to face more.
(b) You must face the Weathertop auto-attacks, since you have not dealt with the auto-attacks at your
current site.
(c) You may do nothing. You had your one chance at entering a site, and you took it, but the ability to
play stuff during the site phase depends on the site that you actually enter. Since you didn't enter Weather
top (and it's too late for that now), you cannot do anything.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(b) is correct.
This ruling is incorrect. The site phase is a procedure. Once you have proceeded to the next step there is no allowance in the rules for returning to a previous step. And since you have not faced the automatic attack at your current site, you cannot play items at that site.
MELE p. 94 wrote:Site Phase
In the order you decide (i.e., you decide which of your companies goes first, second, etc.), each of your companies may:
• do nothing or
• follow this procedure:
1) Enter its site.
2) If the site has an automatic-attack, it attacks the company. The attack is resolved normally (see pages28-34).
3) If the site is untapped, a character in the company may attempt to play an item, ally, or faction that is "playable" at that site. Tap the character and the site.
The company can only play an item, ally, or faction "at that site" which is the one where the "entered."

Again, Farmer Maggot is not intended to be used to avoid a normal automatic attack.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 7 wrote:2. Can I play an "org phase" card in the "end of the org phase" slice of time?
*** No. Once "end of the org phase" cards are played, you may not play "org phase" cards. To do otherwise would make "end of the org phase" cards redundant.
There is no such restriction in the rules and the rationale doesn't make sense. The "end" of a phase is still "during" that phase.

Playing a card that is played "during the organization phase" at the "end of the organization phase" doesn't make the "end" redundant because there is no change in gameplay if the card were played earlier. It is actually the other way around that matters. You can't play cards that are playable at the "end of the organization phase" earlier than the "end" because then you do end up with gameplay differences and inconsistencies if companies are reorganized - like for Sneakin', which should have been an "end" effect instead of a "during" effect.
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CDavis7M
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Subject: [NetRep] Rulings Digest #106

Does „at the end of your turn“ means „during your end-of-turn-phase“? I
guess so. The point is: can you store cards when you are „Safe from the
Shadow“ during your end of turn phase, when you played „Great Road“ before?

*** No. "At the end of your turn" is after all your end of turn phase
stuff is done. Once you start performing actions that are done at the
end of your turn, you can only perform end of turn actions for the rest
of the turn.
The example you give above is illegal.
There is no basis in the rules for this restriction and it contradicts the rule that "you may play resource cards anytime during your own tum unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves."

The entire question is resolved by understanding that the end of the turn (Great Road) if after the EoT phase (Safe From The Shadow). There is no need to make up other restrictions.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 106 wrote:*** Catch an Elusive Scent can be used to play minor/major/gold ring
items at a Wizardhaven created with a stage card if the site normally
has them playable. Due to the reference to "normally playable" on Catch
and Elusive Scent, alignment restrictions apply between the item and the
site.
This is incorrect. There is a difference between "normally playable" and actually playable. An item that is "normally playable" may be prevented from being played by some other effect.

"Normally playable" means as written in the site card's card text ("Normal means as written on the card, not considering other card's effects. Note that this definition only applies to effects referring to card texts.").

The MEWH rules don't change what is considered "normally playable". They just restrict which cards are actually playable. "In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards." The phrase "normally playable" on Catch an Elusive Scent does not refer to any alignment restrictions. The alignment restrictions are completely separate from the site card's card text.

So if you are at a wizardhaven, the item played with Catch an Elusive Scent does not need to have the same alignment as the site because "normally playable" does not consider the MEWH rules and because "a Fallen-wizard site card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero site and a minion site."
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CoE 91 wrote:Can a fw-player start with 3 leader using bad company without Orders
from Lugburz?
*** No.
This is incorrect. There is no restriction on a Fallen-wizard starting with 3 leaders using Bad Company without Orders from Lugburz. Orders from Lugburz can be a starting card but it is not needed to start with multiple leaders. OFL also only allows "a Troll leader in addition to another leader," not 3 leaders.

There is no restriction on starting with multiple leaders, other than the fact that leaders are Orcs or Trolls and a Fallen-wizard may not start with Orcs or Trolls unless they are using Bad Company.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 90 wrote:You aren't really "using a resource card", but following the global directive announced by a long event.
*** Nice try, but you're inventing rules. If what you said is true, you never actually use cards like Star of
High Hope. When you apply the effect of any card, even long and permanent events, you're "using" that
card.
Nice try, but you're inventing rules.
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CoE 90 wrote:As FW player, can Fireworks be played on a minion site (or is it considered to target the site)?
*** The card produces an effect on the site, therefore it has to target the site. Thus, you cannot play
Fireworks at/on a minion site.
This particular ruling is incorrect. Fireworks can be played at a minion site, but it won't untap the site. Also, the rationale is misleading.

This is not the definition of "target" and this description makes it appears as if other cards that "produce an effect on the site" (whatever that was intended to mean) also target the site, and would therefore not work for FW cross-alignment. For instance, the CoE ruling makes it appear that Govern the Storms, preventing the new site from being returned and from being tapped, would not work on hero sites -- but it still works because it is not affecting or targeting the site itself, it is affecting other effects that affect or target the site.

The reason that hero Fireworks doesn't work on a minion site is because Fireworks include an effect of "the site untaps." The site is the specific entity that untapping action plays out though. So it is a target. ("Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action."). So the MEWH rules apply: "A hero resource event may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card."

Still, untapping the site is not the only action of Fireworks. It also taps a sage, causes a dice roll, and creates an effect where the sage cannot untap the next time. So Fireworks can still be played at a minion site, but it will not untap the site.

--------------------
CoE 87 wrote:Can I use Lucky Search to play a minion item? Or is Lucky Search considered to target the item that is
played?
*** You may not, as a Fallen-wizard, play a minion item with Lucky Search, as Lucky Search targets the
item.
This ruling is incorrect for the same reason as the ruling above. Lucky Search does not target the item. It is only the effect of "If you reveal such an item, the scout takes control of it" that targets the item. So this effect is negated but the other effects are not. A FW can still play Lucky Search at a minion site to tap a scour, reveal cards, and face an attack, but the scout does not take control of the item.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CoE 89 wrote:Re: Agent influence attempts
Does Tidings of Death let the defender roll twice? I wouldn't think so because if your opponent is trying
to influence one of your characters (or whatever) he is the one doing the influence check.
*** Tidings of Death will not affect the influcence attempt because it is a resource.
This ruling doesn't appear to be answering the question.

The question is, can the defender roll twice? The answer is no because the defenders rolls are a modification to the check, not the check itself.

The ruling states that Tidings of Death will not affect an agent influence attempt because it is a resource. There is no basis for this statement in the rules. An influence attempt by an agent is still an influence attempt. Tidings of Death will apply.
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CoE 82 wrote:My opponent plays Doors of Night. In response, I play Balance between Powers. Does Doors fizzle?
*** No. Doors of Night is in play before Balance Between Powers resolves to prevent its play.
According to the CRF, playing a card is the act of taking it out of your hand and putting it in play.
Resolution happens afterwards.
This is incorrect and the CoE misquotes the rule. "Playing a card" is not just declaration as asserted by the CoE. It includes declaring and resolving. It is also not an "act," it is a "process."

"Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play." That "process" is the chain of effects, which involves both declaration and resolution.

Balance Between Powers states "No environment cards can be played." This will negate the play of Doors of Night it it were played in response.
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CoE 82 wrote:Can a site with Double-dealing be targeted/affected by cards of the opposite alignment ? Or only the
resources that tap a site (ally/item,ect) may be from the opposite alignment?
*** You may target a site with Double Dealing with resources of the opposite alignment.
No. You may not target a site with double-dealing with resources of the opposite alignment.

There are 2 separate and distinct rules:

(1) Targeting Site and Resource Cards
A hero resource event may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource event may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

(2) Playing Resources at a Site
In order to play a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards. For these purposes, a Fallen-wizard site card (or any Wizardhaven) is both a hero site and a minion site.


Double-dealing states "If the site is a minion-site, you may play appropriate hero resources there. If the site is a hero site, you may play appropriate minion resources there." Therefore, it overrides rule (2) but not rule (1).
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CoE 82 wrote:Can I play Hall of Fire even if I don't have a character at my haven? And as far as I play a character the
game text applys? Or must I wait until I have a character at a haven?
*** If you don't have a company at a site, it's not in play. You can't play cards when the cards targets
aren't in play, so you have to get a company to your haven to play Hall of Fire.
This is incorrect. If a company moves to a new site, the new site is in play even though there is no company at that site. In this case, you can play Hall of Fire on that site.
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CoE 82 wrote:Can a character tap and discard Healing Herbs to untap "himself"
*** No.
No basis for this ruling is provided and there is none in the rules. A character can tap and discard Healing Herbs to untap themselves.

Healing Herbs states "the bearer can tap and discard this item to untap a character that is not wounded."

Tapping the character and discarding healing herbs are active conditions for the effect of "untap a character." At declaration, the character is tapped. When it comes time to resolve the effect, if the character is still tapped (ie no other effect has untapped them), then Healing Herb's own untap effect will untap the character. Since the Herbs are discarded, there is not "no effect" on the game.
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