Incorrect and non-ratified CoE rulings that contradict the existing ICE rulings and the Rules

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CDavis7M
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CoE 67 wrote:if Aragorn's company has moved to Minas Tirith, and then I move other
companies to other sites, I -CAN- play Return of the King at the end of
all m/h phases? or no, because person can't take any actions at the end
of all m/h phases?
*** There is no time to take actions between the end of your
movement/hazard phases and your site phases. You would have to do it
during Aragorn's site phase.
A bit of a nit-pick but here we are. You do not "have to" play RotK in the site phase. And you should not.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 67 wrote:When I play Staff Asunder does the wizard recieve + 5 or + 7 prowess (+2
for the staff which is dicarded +5 of Staff Asunder) I guess +5 since
ther Staff is already in my discard pile.
*** You guess correctly.
Not entirely correct. The Wizard's Staff goes in the marshalling point pile.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 67 wrote:You are "at" your site at all times except from the start of a movement/hazard phase in which you move until the end of all M/H phases that turn. Since you cannot take actions between phases, this means you should treat "end of all movement hazard phases" as equivalent to "the beginning of the site phase," except for effects that are actually triggered by the end-of-turn phase, such as hand resolution.

Example: Galadriel's company has moved to Lorien. You then move other companies to other sites. You cannot hold an extra card in your hand
from Galadriel until the end of all m/h phases.
Second example: Aragorn's company has moved to Minas Tirith. You then move other companies to other sites. You must wait to play Return of the
King until the beginning of the site phase.

*** This is all correct, though I might add that you must enter the site and face any automatic attacks before playing Return of the King, if you plan on playing it during your site phase. Not that I expect Minas Tirith to have automatic attacks... Also, you cannot get the bonus card for Galadriel until you draw up at the end of turn phase, since she is not at the site until the site phase.
This is not all correct. The original post/question is discussing the Movement/Hazard phase but the made-up rules are not limited to the M/H Phase. There is not some universal restriction that "you cannot take actions between phases" as asserted in CoE 67. Furthermore, this contradicts the rule that "you may play resource cards anytime during your own turn unless specifically prohibited by the rules or the cards themselves."

Instead, there is only the restriction on playing resources after the end of the Movement/Hazard phase and before the next M/H phase or the site phase:
"Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company."


Also, it's incorrect and unclear why the player in the original post would want to "treat 'end of all movement hazard phases; as equivalent to 'the beginning of the site phase.'" We know that this is wrong because the companies combine after all M/H phases BEFORE they enter the site. This allows a newly combined company to have a Ranger tap for a River that was not played against his prior company.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 67" wrote:so if a hero player tries to influence a minion player's resources (say,
the hillmen), he gets a -5 modifier. I assume this is also the case if
he reveals a hero copy of the hillmen (meaning, even though he's now got
a hero copy of the resource on the table that he's trying to influence,
he still gets the -5 modifier because he's influencing his opponent's
minion resource).
*** This is correct.
--------
What about fallen wizards? Are all their resources considered hero for
this purpose
, such that a hero or fw player could influence them away
with no -5?
*** This is correct without exception.
There is no -5 to the check when a Wizard player influences a Fallen Wizard's cards, but this ruling is very misleading and has no basis in the rules. A Fallen-wizards resources are definitely not "considered hero" for this purpose or other purposes. It is the alignment of the player that matters (Wizard vs Ringwraith), not the alignment of the resources.
MELE p. 85 wrote:·PARTIV·
USING MELE WITH METW
When one player is a Ringwraith and his opponent is a Wizard, play proceeds normally for each player within the limitations outlined in this section.
. . .
9 · INFLUENCE
Influencing your opponent's resources and characters is handled just as it is in METW and MELE with the following exceptions:
• All influence checks are modified by -5; i.e., its harder for evil characters to influence the Free Peoples and vice versa.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 67 wrote:Balrog rules state that the balrog must play agents as hazards. However, the agent cards are still counted as characters for the purposes of card recyclers, right?
*** Correct.
Obviously incorrect from the rules. This is another failure resulting from ruling based on what someone thinks the rules say vs what the rules actually say. Nowhere do the "Balrog rules state that the balrog must play agents as hazards" as asserted (granted, they cannot be played as characters). Instead, they state:
MEBA p. 2 and 3 wrote:Your Starting Company, Play Deck, and Sideboard
Your starting company and play deck (and your sideboard) may be constructed like any other Ringwraith's with the following exceptions:
. . .
Agents only count as hazards, not as characters.

. . .

CHARACTERS AND COMPANIES
. . .
• Agents may not be played as characters.
In a Balrog deck, Agents are hazards, not characters. Weigh All Things to a Nicety and other resources that affect characters do not work with agents in a Balrog deck.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 67 wrote:Is there a difference between "need to be controlled" and "require influence to be controlled"?
E.g. Rebel-Talk is played on Arwen. My GI has been 18.
A) My GI is still 18
B) My GI is 20
*** There is no difference. A is correct.
This ruling is severely lacking in context.

Rebel-talk states "Character cannot be controlled by direct influence." It says nothing about "need to be controlled" or "require influence to be controlled."

There is also the CRF ruling on influence: "A character removed from the control of direct influence outside the organization phase does not need to be controlled by general influence until that player's next organization phase."

No idea where "require influence to be controlled" comes from, unless it is a vague reference to the rules on Characters & Companies.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 66 wrote:In Digest #65, I ruled:
*** You cannot play Thrall of the Voice outside of your organization
phase, but a Thrall in play that is not on another character can be used
after a successful influence attempt after which you play the character
in question.
Miika Karmitsa rightly pointed out:
Looks like that isn't possible: (emphasis mine)
Thrall of the Voice
Instead of a normal character, DURING YOUR ORGANIZATION PHASE you may
bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6
mind. Place this card with the character. -1 to his mind to a minimum of
1. Such a character may also be IN YOUR STARTING COMPANY.
*** Amend my ruling above from Digest #65 to remove the statement
claiming that you can use Thrall of the Voice with an influence attempt.
Someone actually read the card text!
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CDavis7M
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CoE 67 wrote:Is Elven Shores adjacent to Cardolan?
*** No. Both of these questions can be answered by reading the region
cards. If you don't have the card, their texts are on the Dutch
Council's site in the Spoilers section.
Reading the card text? What great advice.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:58 am
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:04 am 7.

However, the rules don't indicate that Allies count as characters for purposes of awarding CvCC Kill MP.
I don't understand where you are coming from here.

...

But the MELE quote you gave regarding receiving points for elimination is a purpose of combat; it appears in the company vs. company COMBAT section. If that subsection (Body Checks) didn't apply to allies, allies couldn't be eliminated in CvCC at all.
This hinges on "purposes of combat." The word "purpose" can have different meaning. It could be (A) the reason for which something is done or (B) a limitation on scope. Neither definition of "purpose" allows for "receiving MP" to be a combat purpose. Whereas being eliminated is a combat purpose, it is synonymous with a failed body check.

(MELE p. 42/43) "An ally does not (emphasis original) count as a character for any purposes other than combat and the use of certain skills... Allies that are eliminated are placed in the out-of-play pile."
(MELE p. 87) "Ally: An ally is considered a character only for the purposes of combat (facing strikes, tapping to support, etc.)"
(MELE p.88) "Combat: The resolution of an attack. This involves strikes being assigned and strike sequences being performed. Combat specifically encompasses the time from the resolution of an attack action until the final strike sequence is completed."

It's true that the rule on receiving kill MP in CVCC is in the CVCC section (that is the most relevant place to put the rule). But the "purpose" of this receiving MPs is for the VICTORY CONDITIONS section -- MPs are counted at the Free Council, not during combat. Receiving MPs towards the victory conditions is a "purpose other than combat."

Furthermore, "Receiving kill marshalling points as indicated on the character's card" may occur during combat for characters, but Marshalling Points serve no purpose during combat, they are not relevant to assignment or resolution of strikes.

Allies do not count as characters DURING combat, they only count as characters for combat PURPOSES.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 125 wrote: 1)
Heart Grown Cold's effect is simply applied w/out a chain of effects, there is no time to respond.
There's no basis for this in the rules. Heart Grown Cold's effect ("Fallen-wizard players must use minion site cards for hero Haven," and Free/Border holds depending on SP) is obviously applied when Heart Grown Cold is resolved in the chain of effects in which it was declared. When the play Heart Grown Cold is first declared, there is time to respond in response to HGC's declaration.

The problem with this ruling is that it completely hides the context and then gives an incorrect ruling for the general case. The ruling appears to be directed towards the question of how to handle a Fallen-wizard "rebuilding" Ruins&Lairs into border/shadow holds when HCG is in play, because the new site type require an exchange of sites. (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=406&p=2846&hilit=h ... cold#p2846)

Presumably the Netrep intended to say that the MEWH rule of "immediately exchange any affected site cards
already in play with the corresponding site cards of the proper type
" is applied without a chain of effect. But even this is incorrect because "any activity in the game" (except meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck) is an "action" and all actions in the game are declared and resolved in a chain of effects. "Exchanging sites" per MEWH is "activity in the game" and so it is resolved in a chain of effects. Still, just because something is resolved in a chain of effects does not necessarily mean that there is an opportunity to respond. The MEWH rule still says "immediately." Meaning that there is no time for any actions between (A) the effect of HGC coming into play and (B) the exchange of the site--the site-type changing action necessarily involves declaring the site exchange action.

So then: there is no time for Mischief in a Mean Way to work with Rebuild the Town when Heart Grown Cold is in Play because the declaration of Rebuild the Town necessarily involves immediately exchanging the sites per MEWH and then immediately discarding Rebuild the Town after the sites are exchanged per Annotation 9a and the MEWH restrictions on targeting cross-alignment sites.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 125 wrote: 2)
I play The Great Hunt and choose opponent’s discard pile. If I don’t defeat a revealed creature, does it get discarded, then revealed again by The Great Hunt?
--------------------------------------------------
Yes, you resolve the combat normally and then continue with The Great Hunt.
No. The player does not discard the creature to the top of the discard pile and then reveal it again (and get attacked again).

The Great Hunt states: "Your opponent reveals cards one at a time from his play deck or his discard pile (your choice). Any hazard creature revealed immediately attacks Alatar's company."

Back to the question, the player is asking how to handle non-defeated creatures that have been revealed from their opponent's discard pile by The Great Hunt, which then immediately attack. Normally a creature that is played will create an attack, and the creature card will be discarded if the created attack is not defeated.

However, the creatures revealed by The Great Hunt are not "played." The attacks are created by a revealed creature in the discard pile. The creature is in the discard pile and it stays there. If the creature's attack is not defeated, it is not possible to "discard" the creature (move the creature from play to the discard pile) because the creature is not in play and it is already in the discard pile.

Furthermore, Annotation 24 would prevent resolution of The Great Hunt from being interrupted. It's not clear (especially given the complete lack of a rule to discard non-defeated non-detainment creatures) that Annotation 9a would apply instead. Regardless, the creature is not played.

So no, combat is not resolved normally because the creature is not played normally. If you do not defeat a creature revealed by you simply leave it with the other revealed cards and proceed to reveal other cards as needed. So no, the creature will not be revealed again.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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CoE 125 wrote: 3)
Can you put minion minor items under Armory?
---------------------------------------------------
As a Fallen-wizard, no. As a Hero player you can, and they count towards gaining the Armory marshalling point.
This is wrong. Minion items cannot be used to satisfy the conditions for hero Armory and so they do not count for giving the marshalling point. The rule is "minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources." The entire point of this rule is so that items of the opposite alignment are ONLY usable for uniqueness-blocking and half MP.

Armory literally says "If you have at least three minor items under Armory, gain 1 Marshaling point." The word "if" means that a condition will follow. This is a condition. Minion items cannot be used to satisfy the condition of "having at least three minor items under Armory."

In the Netrep discussions there was a question of whether this ruling only applied to the conditions for playing a card. Well, the ruling is not limited in that way. It applies to all conditions. For example, Black Rain has an effect that "you may play an item from your hand." This is an effect of Black Rain, it is not a condition for playing Black Rain. This effect to play an item from your hand necessarily has the condition that you have an item in your hand. A hero item cannot satisfy this condition:
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 54
Date: 1998/03/09

>OK, I'm now confused. Minions can play Hero Items for 1/2 MP and they
>can't use the abilities of the item, how does that differ from playing
>a hero ring w/ Black Rain.


Minions can't play hero rings from minion resources. Its always been
that way. That's why it is so hard for a minion to play the hero
One Ring. Hero items cannot fulfill conditions for minion resources,
at least for minions.
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CDavis7M
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CoE 125 wrote: 4)
Is an imprisoned Ringwraith impossible to rescue if once freed he would be violating company composition rules?
---------------------------------------------------
Yes, the freeing effect would be cancelled and the Ringwraith would remain imprisoned. On a related note, a released Ringwraith follower must be controlled by your Ringwraith by the end of your next organization phase or that Ringwraith follower is discarded.
This is wrong. The Ringwraith prisoner can be released but you cannot cause a company composition violation -- the other Non-RW company would be discarded.

The MELE rules for "Limitations on Company Composition" state:
"Note: If two companies end up at a non-Darkhaven site and combining those companies would violate the limitations on company composition, one of the companies that just moved must return to its site of origin. Similarly, an effect that causes such a violation is cancelled (e.g., We Have Come to Kill)."

There is also the CRF ruling on a similar point:
"If you play a Ringwraith at a non-Darkhaven site where there is one of your non-Ringwraith companies, one of the companies must move that turn. If both companies are still there at the end of the movement/hazard phase, discard the non-Ringwraith company."

So a RW and a non-RW company may end up at the same site, but they cannot violate the company composition rules.

The MEDM Rules on prisoners state: "Following the rescue-attack, an untapped character in the rescuing company can tap, and all characters taken prisoner under the hazard host immediately join the company under general influence (which must be legally reconciled during the player's next organization phase) -- the rescue attempt is successful."

The rescue attempt is still successful if a character taps, it's just that the RW company cannot join the non-RW company. The non-RW characters are discarded. In fact, this has already been ruled on by ICE:
From: Gnome <7633...@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 504
Date: 1998/09/15
Subject: [VAN]Prisoners

Can a Ringwraith rescue a prisoner at a non-Darkhaven site? The rules say that Ringwraiths and non-Ringwraiths cannot be at the same non-Darkhaven site, but a successful rescue causes the prisoner to immediately join the company that rescued him. (I think Ichabod answered this once, but I can't find the right digest.)
The Ringwraith can rescue the prisoner. The former prisoner is then discarded to satisfy the requirements of a Ringwraith company.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CoE 125 wrote: 5)
If a company must return to its site of origin and that site card is no longer in play, it (or the resource card that acted as the site) must be returned back into play in the same orientation that it left. It does not matter where that site card is, it is returned even from out of play.

If a company simply loses its site card, all the characters are discarded. For example, this happens to a company using Wondrous Maps played with a Crown of Flowers if someone Twilights that Crown of Flowers.

Characters getting released from cards like Sack Over the Head need to be able to either join a company already at the site, or their player must be able to provide a site card for them from his location deck. Otherwise the released characters are discarded.
Wondrous Maps cannot be "played with" Crown of Flowers. First of all, that doesn't make sense. Second, Wondrous Maps targets the company, so it cannot be played with (ie Target) Crown of Flowers as well. Crown of Flowers only works with non-targeting events.
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CoE 125 wrote: 6)
Effects that reassign strikes affect only the order or assigning strikes, not the eligibility to face a strike. For example, Alatar may teleport to a company facing Neeker-breekers, but he cannot face a strike from them.
Alatar MAY (and MUST) face a strike from Neeker-breekers, it's just that the strike "Errata: Does not effect Wizards."

This matters because if the prowess of the Neeker-breekers is boosted using Froth, Clouds, Wake of War, Stench, Dwar, etc., then it IS possible to play Wound of Long Burden on Alatar facing the Neeker-breekers.
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