Beginning/end of phase and turn #2

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:09 pm How is this any different from multiple Ahunt Dragons?
It is triggered by start of M/H phase, unlike attacks from Ahunt Dragons that may be triggered later and that do not rely on start of phase.

I do not have at mind at the moment any voluntary action that could be declared only at beginning of M/H phase.
But I have an ambition to create clarifications that will be forward compatible. I.e. such that do not only solve situations that may occur within current set of cards/effects and that would not require a modification when new card/effect with appropriate potential will appear.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:43 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:09 pm How is this any different from multiple Ahunt Dragons?
It is triggered by start of M/H phase, unlike attacks from Ahunt Dragons that may be triggered later and that do not rely on start of phase.
Multiple Ahunt dragons that are already in play will be triggered by revealing the new site card, which is the start of the M/H phase. This is the same thing as BoCH and FSF.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:40 am Are you ignoring that it is a reference to Annotation 9?
I'm not sure how I could be ignoring something that I literally don't see.

---
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:40 am "There is no rule that generally disallows actions at the beginning/end of the phases besides the rules specific to the M/H and Site phases."
CoE disagrees.
CoE #118 wrote:(13) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume that once a player starts playing resources playable "at the end of the organization phase," no resources can be played for the rest of the organization unless they also have the wording "at the end of-"?"

You are correct.
CoE #124 wrote:(3)
Can you play And Forth He Hastened on Saruman to take a spell in the end of turn phase?
---------------------------------------------------
No, Saruman gets to use his ability only at the beginning of the end-of-turn phase. Once you play AFHH during the end-of-turn phase, it is no longer the beginning.
Well, that second is at least consistent with your "one chain" theory if "Once you play" meant "Once you resolve".
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:24 pm
Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:43 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:09 pm How is this any different from multiple Ahunt Dragons?
It is triggered by start of M/H phase, unlike attacks from Ahunt Dragons that may be triggered later and that do not rely on start of phase.
Multiple Ahunt dragons that are already in play will be triggered by revealing the new site card, which is the start of the M/H phase. This is the same thing as BoCH and FSF.
Attacks from Ahunts may be also triggered at other moments. Attack from BoCH and FSF may not.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Moving this back to this relevant thread topic.
CDavis7M wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:11 am Steps (5) and (6) happen at the same time per the CRF. Steps (5) and (6) ARE the End of the M/H phase per Annotation 25a. There is nothing in the M/H phase procedure coming after the End at Steps (5) and (6). There is nothing in the M/H phase procedure coming after the End at Steps (5) and (6). Since Healing of Nimrodel happens at the End, which is the same time that hand size is resolved.
Are you saying that Healing of Nimrodel resolves as a third simultaneous action with resetting hand size and removing site of origin?

Annotation 9 says that it should occur in a chain of effects following its trigger; if those actions were The End, Healing of Nimrodel would need to resolve after them, which the CRF says is not possible. So I'm afraid I disagree with your presumption underlined above; Annotation 25a does not say what to consider The End.

Similarly, I note that the given steps from the rulebook are a "procedure" and do not specify what portion to consider The End. If The End name only encapsulates one pair of "simultaneous actions", I don't see how any cards that state playable at the end of the movement/hazard phase could be played (one can't play effects during actions). Completion of steps (5) and (6) is simply the conclusion of the phase. We don't know that "End" equals "conclusion", and it sure seems like it can't or none of the effects that trigger off the End could occur during that phase.

---

To clarify my challenge to you: If The End name allows chains of effects to occur, what can you present that suggests that there is a limit on ONLY one such chain?

Case:
Company moves from Mount Gram to Girdle of Radagast + Guarded Haven + Mischief in a Mean Way Bree
End of M/H phase.
Lure of Nature supposedly passively triggers corruption checks.
Fallen Radagast fails a corruption check.
Eyes of the Shadow passively triggers increased hazard limit. (Hazard player may now want to play more hazards.)
Girdle of Radagast is discarded according to MEWH (probably simultaneously and not passively? not relevant here).
Foul Fumes passively triggers return to origin.

I don't remember anything that suggests that The End could not be considered to be anything after players no longer wish to actively declare chains of effect. I imagine there could be plenty of time for additional multiple chains of effect following passive End of Turn effects, not included in the listed procedures (which can't be a complete list since they don't include any resource card play).
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Because the ruling tries to impose restrictions only on players, not limiting triggered non-ABP/AEP actions, its text has been changed to reflect this.
Additionally it now is more permissive only in case of beginning of M/H phase, not in case of start of any phase.

"Acronyms:

ABP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning of given phase or a turn.
AEP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) end of given phase or a turn.

Beginning of a phase/turn:

This period begins at start of a phase/turn and ends when all players announce that they will not declare any ABP starting a chain of effects and when all triggered ABP are resolved.
Actions that players may declare in response to not triggered ABP are other ABP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Player may declare any otherwise legal action may be declared in response to action(s) declared at beginning of M/H phase.
Triggered ABP are declared before ABP that may be taken by players.

End of a phase/turn:

This period begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved.
This period ends when all players announce that they will not declare any action and when all declared actions are resolved.
Only actions that may be declared by players in response to AEP are other AEP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Triggered AEP are declared before AEP that may be taken by players."

Recent changes are underlined. I will edit first post of the thread.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

But the player may always declare any action in response to any other action if not restricted from doing so.

Why propose a restriction in the first place? There is no need for one.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:18 am Why propose a restriction in the first place? There is no need for one.
Question and answer. But I have a different answer.

There are or may be multiple actions that may be taken only at the beginning/end of phase and turn.
Players should have a chance to take them all.
There must be a boundary between a period that is beginning/end of phase and turn and rest of phase/turn.

If there would not be some restrictions, it would be very easy to spoil other player's actions e.g. by declaring Twilight in response.
It is the action that does not necessarily may be taken only at beginning/end of phase and turn, so if it has been taken why the period is still called beginning/end of phase and turn?

OR

there are no boundaries.
Someone may tap a Wizard for Wizard's Staff's effect then play And Forth He Hastened and tap the Wizard for Wizard for Wizard's Staff's effect again.


There is premise that there are periods of beginning/end of phase and turn.
If there would not be any restrictions governing them then player would be allowed to play Bridge as first action of M/H phase then his opponent would be able to play Cave-Drake in next chain of effect.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Yangtze2000
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 5:46 pm

Interesting discussion! As CDavis7M said before, the game's designers were RPGers and Tolkien fans, so there isn't the rigour in the rules of, say, an Avalon Hill wargame, so I commend the effort to establish clarity. I spotted a couple of layout/ wording changes to the proposal that would make it easier for me to follow:

...
The only actions that players may declare in response to non-triggered ABP are:
  • other ABP.
  • actions that target dice-rolling action.
  • actions that target the declared event.

...
The only actions that may be players may declare in response to (non-triggered?) AEP are:
  • other AEP.
  • actions that target a dice-rolling action.
  • actions that target the declared event.

...
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

"Acronyms:

ABP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning of given phase or a turn.
AEP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) end of given phase or a turn.

Beginning of a phase/turn:

This period begins at start of a phase/turn and ends when all players announce that they will not declare any ABP starting a chain of effects and when all triggered ABP are resolved.
Actions that players may declare in response to not triggered ABP are other ABP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
If there are any other non-ABP actions triggered at beginning of given phase or a turn, player may declare any otherwise legal action in response to action(s) declared at beginning of the phase.
Triggered ABP are declared before ABP that may be taken by players.

End of a phase/turn:

This period begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved.
This period ends when all players announce that they will not declare any action and when all declared actions are resolved.
Only actions that may be declared by players in response to AEP are other AEP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Triggered AEP are declared before AEP that may be taken by players."

Recent changes are underlined. M/H phase is not privileged anymore. I will edit first post of the thread.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Yangtze2000 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:02 am Interesting discussion! As CDavis7M said before, the game's designers were RPGers and Tolkien fans, so there isn't the rigour in the rules of, say, an Avalon Hill wargame, so I commend the effort to establish clarity. I spotted a couple of layout/ wording changes to the proposal that would make it easier for me to follow:

...
The only actions that players may declare in response to non-triggered ABP are:
  • other ABP.
  • actions that target dice-rolling action.
  • actions that target the declared event.

...
The only actions that may be players may declare in response to (non-triggered?) AEP are:
  • other AEP.
  • actions that target a dice-rolling action.
  • actions that target the declared event.

...
Good summary. This is basically the idea behind the regulation.
Rest is lawyer's stuff. Unfortunately necessary.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Yangtze2000
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 5:46 pm

Yes sorry I didn't mean to cut the rest out. The rest is important. It was just those two paragraphs that I had to re-read a couple of times and got confused by. Just the bullet-points make it a bit clearer I think.

I can see what CDavis7M means to a degree when he says a regulation isn't needed. Sometimes it's possible to infer complex interactions in a game from a very short ruleset. But that doesn't always make for the easiest learning experience, and personally I'd rather have things more clearly spelt out.

Thanks to all of you for continuing to talk this stuff out. I wonder, where there are two or more popular interpretations of a rule (still, after decades!), if there isn't a role for CoE to offer to the community both alternatives, clearly enumerated with examples and advantages and disadvantages, and allow players (new players in particular) to choose which they prefer? Rather than discuss ad-infinitum in a (probably vain) attempt to uncover an incontrovertible interpretation? Players could then mix and match their own ruleset. Which is no doubt what happens now, but the problem is I don't know all of the popular alternatives yet.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

CDavis7M wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:18 am But the player may always declare any action in response to any other action if not restricted from doing so.

Why propose a restriction in the first place? There is no need for one.
ICE Rules Digest 123 wrote:>3. Can Fallen Gandalf tap at the END of the org phase AFTER he uses his uptap ability to go to the sideboard for a second time?

No. That is not an effect that can be declared during the end of a phase.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Theo wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:09 pm
CDavis7M wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:18 am But the player may always declare any action in response to any other action if not restricted from doing so.

Why propose a restriction in the first place? There is no need for one.
ICE Rules Digest 123 wrote:>3. Can Fallen Gandalf tap at the END of the org phase AFTER he uses his uptap ability to go to the sideboard for a second time?

No. That is not an effect that can be declared during the end of a phase.
No kidding! The rules on "Using Your Sideboard When You Tap Your Wizard" specifically state: "during your organization phase, you may tap your Wizard" while fallen Gandalf's effect would untap him "at the end of your organization phase." The organization phase has already ended by the time that the player is allowed to declare the next action for a chain of effects. Fallen Gandalf cannot tap to sideboard after his effect untaps him because it is no longer "during your organization phase."

Trying to sideboard a 2nd time during the end of turn (eg in the same chain of effects as the untapping effect) doesn't work because that would violate active conditions.
User avatar
Theo
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Since you seem to have missed it, the underlined portion is that Gandalf's tap effect cannot be declared during the end of a phase.

You can make up a story about there being some untap interaction timing restriction, but that is not the ICE netrep's story. That is CDavis7M's story alone.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make...
All players are welcome at Meduseld! https://theo-donly.github.io/MECCG/
Post Reply

Return to “CoE Rules & Errata Community Proposals”