Beginning/end of phase and turn #2

[Konrad Klar]

It is not clear when exactly a beginning of phase/turn ends and when exactly an end of phase/turn begins and ends.
Therefore it is unclear when exactly an actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning/end of phase/turn may be (or are) declared.


I propose following regulation of the questions:

Acronyms:

ABP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning of given phase or a turn.
AEP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) end of given phase or a turn.

Beginning of a phase/turn:

This period begins at start of a phase/turn and ends when all players announce that they will not declare any ABP starting a chain of effects and when all triggered ABP are resolved.
Only actions that may be declared in response to ABP are other ABP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Triggered ABP are declared before ABP that may be taken by players.

End of a phase/turn:

This period begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved.
This period ends when all players announce that they will not declare any action and when all declared actions are resolved.
Only actions that may be declared in response to AEP are other AEP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Triggered AEP are declared before AEP that may be taken by players.


Examples:

At beginning of end-of-turn phase a player taps Wizard's Staff (ABP). In response other ABP may be declared or action that targets corruption check.
Hazard player passes. Resource player declares New Friendship. Hazard player declares Blind to the West (on declared New Friendship).

At the end of turn there are in play: Covetous Thoughts, The Nazgul Are Abroad, Doors of Night, and From the Pits of Angband.
The corruption check from Covetous Thoughts is declared first. Players may declare in response action that targets the cc, or declare returning a Nazgul, or unique Dragon manifestation or Drake. The latter actions may be also declared after chain of effects started by cc from Covetous Thoughts is resolved.

I propose following regulation of the questions:

"Acronyms:

ABP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) beginning of given phase or a turn.
AEP: An actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) end of given phase or a turn.

Beginning of a phase/turn:

This period begins at start of a phase/turn and ends when all players announce that they will not declare any ABP starting a chain of effects and when all triggered ABP are resolved.
Actions that players may declare in response to not triggered ABP are other ABP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
If there are any other non-ABP actions triggered at beginning of given phase or a turn, player may declare any otherwise legal action in response to action(s) declared at beginning of the phase.
Triggered ABP are declared before ABP that may be taken by players.

End of a phase/turn:

This period begins when all players announce that they will not declare any action other than AEP starting a chain of effects and when all declared actions other that AEP are resolved.
This period ends when all players announce that they will not declare any action and when all declared actions are resolved.
Only actions that may be declared by players in response to AEP are other AEP and actions that target a dice-rolling actions and actions that target declared event.
Triggered AEP are declared before AEP that may be taken by players."

Recent changes are underlined.
Previous version was too restrictive and did not allow for Gates of Morning in response to declaration of returning action from Snowstorm, for instance.

EDIT: Applied changes from viewtopic.php?p=36093#p36093
EDIT 2: Changed:
Players may declare any otherwise legal action may be declared in response to action(s) declared at beginning of M/H phase.
to
Players may declare any otherwise legal action in response to action(s) declared at beginning of M/H phase.
EDIT 3: M/H phase is not privileged anymore.

[CDavis7M]

I propose we remove the "regulation" completely because (A) no examples are provided for why it's needed, (B) it's incorrect for several other reasons, and (C) and it's needlessly complicated. But, this "regulation" is de facto removed anyway.

[Konrad Klar]

(A) no examples are provided for why it's needed,

Right.

Example is situation when at the end of M/H phase a cc from Lure of Nature is triggered. Without some regulation limiting actions that may be declared in response, nothing prevents players from declaring Hundreds of Butterflies or An Unexpected Outpost in response. Nothing prevents players from starting next chain of effects in the same phase.
Nothing stops a player from tapping a bearer of Wizard's Staff to take Spell from discard pile then untap him by some effect and tap him again to take Spell another from discard pile.

Lack of such regulations makes the terms beginning/end of phase/turn meaningless.

(B) it's incorrect for several other reasons, and (C) and it's needlessly complicated.

Any improvements that would make it correct (if it is incorrect) and any changes that would make it simpler and still serving its purpose are welcome.
With the stipulation that the proposal (and its previous version) is based on premise that beginning/end of phase/turn are part of the phase/turn. Without the premise the proposal does not make a sense.

This "regulation" is de facto removed anyway.

I believe that the problem has been regulated earlier by some play groups and that some of the regulations are still in use (likewise Freeze the Flesh was used before errata that make the card actually playable). Some other play groups that do not consider an existence of the problem do not (consider a) need (of) any regulation.

[CDavis7M]

You are trying to solve problems that don't exist.

(A) no examples are provided for why it's needed,

Example is situation when at the end of M/H phase a cc from Lure of Nature is triggered. Without some regulation limiting actions that may be declared in response, nothing prevents players from declaring Hundreds of Butterflies or An Unexpected Outpost in response. Nothing prevents players from starting next chain of effects in the same phase.

...These are not "examples" of why the "regulation" is needed. There are no issues here that are not covered by existing rules. The procedures for playing the game are well defined. By the way, Lure of Nature's corruption check is not triggered at the end of the M/H phase.

Nothing stops a player from tapping a bearer of Wizard's Staff to take Spell from discard pile then untap him by some effect and tap him again to take Spell another from discard pile.

...except for "beginning"...

Lack of such regulations makes the terms beginning/end of phase/turn meaningless.

These terms already have sufficient meaning from the existing rules. The rules already provide a clear procedure for players taking their turn.

I believe that the problem has been regulated earlier by some play groups

I've never seen anyone mention a problem in the game requiring these regulations.

[Konrad Klar]

By the way, Lure of Nature's corruption check is not triggered at the end of the M/H phase.

Read the CRF entry for Lure of Nature. Whole.

...These are not "examples" of why the "regulation" is needed. There are no issues here that are not covered by existing rules

These terms already have sufficient meaning from the existing rules. The rules already provide a clear procedure for players taking their turn.

I've never seen anyone mention a problem in the game requiring these regulations.

So there are two sets of rules regulating the topic. One for blind, other for not blind.

[CDavis7M]

Ha! Exactly.

[Konrad Klar]

Some actions are not end/beginning of turn/phase specific. If to disallow for all them at the points of game, then dice-rolling actions declared at end/beginning of turn/phase could not be modified by them.

[Konrad Klar]

Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all
other hazards have been played." Corruption checks from Lure of Nature do not
trigger if its bearer's company returns to its site of origin. The corruption checks
caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/
hazard phase. Of course, the character's player can play resources to modify the
corruption checks. The hazard player is allowed to play hazards in response, if the
hazard player has enough hazard limit remaining. Hazards so played must directly
affect the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature. The hazard player can play no
other hazards, no creature, no new corruption cards, etc.

I do not know why ICE author has decided to replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all
other hazards have been played." if later he stated:
"The corruption checks
caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/
hazard phase."

Perhaps because I am blind*.

The proposal is extension and generalization of:

"The hazard player is allowed to play hazards in response, if the
hazard player has enough hazard limit remaining. Hazards so played must directly
affect the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature. The hazard player can play no
other hazards, no creature, no new corruption cards, etc."

*) or that was approach like:

[CDavis7M]

Great!

I do not know why ICE author has decided to replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all
other hazards have been played." if later he stated: "The corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/hazard phase."

By the way, I do know why the ICE author said that. Because these are two separate CRF rulings for 2 different cards both named "Lure of Nature." It would be obvious from the history of the game but can be also deduced by reading the card text.

Perhaps because I am blind*.

Maybe just looking in all the wrong spots.

Some actions are not end/beginning of turn/phase specific. If to disallow for all them at the points of game, then dice-rolling actions declared at end/beginning of turn/phase could not be modified by them.

There is no rule that generally disallows actions at the beginning/end of the phases besides the rules specific to the M/H and Site phases.

[CDavis7M]

Here is a handy beginning/end of phase/turn reference for you based on the actual Rules and Annotations (not based on this proposal). A Token of Goodwill. There is nothing unclear about this.

[CDavis7M]

(A) no examples are provided for why it's needed,

Example is situation when at the end of M/H phase a cc from Lure of Nature is triggered. Without some regulation limiting actions that may be declared in response, nothing prevents players from declaring Hundreds of Butterflies or An Unexpected Outpost in response. Nothing prevents players from starting next chain of effects in the same phase.
Nothing stops a player from tapping a bearer of Wizard's Staff to take Spell from discard pile then untap him by some effect and tap him again to take Spell another from discard pile.

The handling of the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature is already described in its CRF entry. So Lure of Nature is not an example of a situation where this proposal is needed.

A player may tap the bearer of Wizard's Staff to declare the retrieval of certain cards "at the beginning of your end-of-turn phase." There is no possibility of declaring an untapping effect in the same chain of effects as it would negate the declaration of the retrieval. And there is no possibility of untapping in a 2nd chain of effects and then tapping the bearer again in a 3rd chain of effects as these chains of effects would no longer be happening "at the beginning of your end-of-turn phase." It should be clear that subsequent chains of effects cannot also at the "beginning" when the first card was retrieved by Wizard's Staff.

There are no gameplay examples for why the proposal is needed.

[Konrad Klar]

There are no gameplay examples for why the proposal is needed.

Except for the all mentioned by me end of phase/turn examples.
For beginning of phase/turn there is no gameplay examples known by me.
I cannot exclude a possibility that e.g. some other than Wizard card may be tapped for effect only at beginning of end-of-turn phase. The proposal sets limitations within which multiple effects (each usable only at beginning of end-of-turn phase) may be declared.

There is no possibility of declaring an untapping effect in the same chain of effects as it would negate the declaration of the retrieval.

Right.
What comes to my mind is a hypothetical effect that causes untapping a character after successful cc.

[Theo]

And there is no possibility of untapping in a 2nd chain of effects and then tapping the bearer again in a 3rd chain of effects as these chains of effects would no longer be happening "at the beginning of your end-of-turn phase." It should be clear that subsequent chains of effects cannot also at the "beginning" when the first card was retrieved by Wizard's Staff.

Trying to understand your alternative to the proposal; are you implying:
1) that only one chain of effects can occur at the beginning/end of a phase?
2) that only one effect may be actively declared at the beginning/end of a phase?
3) that only one effect may occur at the beginning/end of a phase?

And why?

I would think that the precedent is that phases/sub-phases don't normally transition until the players agree that they transition; if they can begin any chains of effect, they can begin as many as they want.

[CDavis7M]

What definition of "beginning" allows a later point in time to also be the "beginning"?

[Konrad Klar]

What definition of "beginning" allows a later point in time to also be the "beginning"?

A definition of range. A range may contain infinite number of points.
If some period is considered as "beginning", the period contains infinite number of points in time, each belonging to "beginning".