2019 ARV - Statistics, Summary, and Suggestions

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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CDavis7M
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Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Statistics:
There were 104 submissions and 1,618 posts in The 2019 Annual Rules Vote (ARV)

Top Submitters:
67 submissions (64%) - Konrad Klar
14 submissions (15%) - the Jabberwock
8 submissions (7%) - Theo

Summary:
I think most of the 2019 ARV submissions are non-issues. Meaning, there is no dispute about how the game should be played.

Furthermore, many of the submissions fail to provide a clear explanation of the issues, some present solutions based on alleged or hypothetical problems, some propose to reword rulings for no game play benefit, some fail to cite the relevant rules, some fail to cite the relevant ICE and CoE rulings, some propose balancing changes, and some are just poorly worded.

I have reviewed the 104 Submissions and identified the questions being asked in the posts (which are often different from the proposal by the original submitter) and determined whether there is an actual dispute about game play, not just a dispute about the interpretation of the cards or the rules.

Personally, I feel that many of the most-debated topics are actually fairly irrelevant to most games. So I have made my own personal "top issues" list and then I've followed that with an ordered listed according to the number of posts made in the corresponding thread. The "#" is an identifier and refers to the the ordering of the submissions as shown in the list below. The questions in these lists are just my suggested topics to vote on if the community even wanted to vote on topics at all.


CDavis7M's Top 10 Issues:
  • #2 (5 posts) Q: When a player announces "this company is moving to a face up site already in play," must the player specify which face up site or can the player decide which site to move to later? And, will the face up site only remain on the table (even if another company would discard it) if the player did not specify the face up site?
  • #91 (83 posts) Q: Does Thrall of the Voice allow Orcs and Trolls to be played?
  • #26 (87 posts) Q: Can another character be played during the organization phase before or after a character is played using Thrall's/Open to the Summons' character playing effect? That is, is Thrall's character-playing effect in lieu of the normal ability character playing?
  • #26 (87 posts) Q: Can multiple Thralls/Open to the Summons can be placed on the same character?
  • #91 (83 posts) Q: Does Thrall of the Voice require the character to be brought into their play at a haven or their home site per the normal rules for bringing characters into play? Or can the character be played at any site?
  • #88 (16 posts) Q: Is Spider of the Morlat defeated (giving MP) when the Spider attack of 2 strikes (+1 strike per Morlat effect) with 10 prowess is defeated?
  • #77 (26 posts) Q: Does Bow of Alatar allow Alatar to resolve a strike that has already been assigned to another character?
  • #43 (47 posts) Q: When a site (e.g., Framsburg) allows for creatures to be playable as an automatic-attack that "must normally be [playable] keyed to [a]" particular region/site type, must the creature have the corresponding region/site type symbol on the left-hand side of the card or can creatures that are conditionally keyable (e.g., based on region name or the site's site path) in their card text also be played?
  • #43 (47 posts) Q: If conditionally keyable creatures may be played as an automatic attack (e.g., at Framsburg) , must those conditions be met in order to be played as an automatic attack? (e.g., Can Giant Spiders, which is keyable to Ruins & Lairs in certain regions but not Anduin Vales, be played as an automatic attack at Framsburg in Anduin Vales) (e.g., can Morgul-rats be played at Framsburg if Doors of Night is in play?)
  • #57 (44 posts) Q: For Parsimony of Seclusion, does Agburanar need to be returned to your hand in order to increase the hazard limit by two or can the "return" of Agburanar fail while still increasing the hazard limit by two?

Top 2019 ARV Discussion:
  • #26 (87 posts) Q: Does the character-playing effect of Thrall of the Voice happen at resolution of playing Thrall or can you decide to use the character playing effect later?
  • #26 (87 posts) Q: Can another character be played during the organization phase before or after a character is played using Thrall's character playing effect? That is, is Thrall's character-playing effect in lieu of the normal ability character playing?
  • #26 (87 posts) Q: Can multiple Thralls can be placed on the same character?
  • #26 (87 posts) Q: Can the character playing effect of that same Thrall be used again after a character has been played by its ability?
  • #91 (83 posts) Q: Does Thrall of the Voice allow Orcs and Trolls to be played?
  • #91 (83 posts) Q: Does Thrall of the Voice require the character to be brought into their play at a haven or their home site per the normal rules for bringing characters into play? Or can the character be played at any site?
  • #33 (60 posts) Q: If the site-type of a player's Lossadan Cairn in play is changed from Ruins & Lairs (e.g., by Hold Rebuilt and Repaired), does Trouble on All Borders played on that player's Ice-orcs still affect Forochel and its adjacent regions? And which copies of the sites matter?
  • #33 (60 posts) Q: If an Orc/Troll faction in play is playable at a site that is normally not a Darkhold, does that faction count for purposes of Great Army of the North if the site type of that site is in play and has been changed to a Darkhold (e.g., by Witch-king of Angmar)? And which copies of the sites matter?
  • #55 (55 posts) Q: Do cards stating "<Skill> only" require targeting the character with the skill? (e.g., the Skilled character cannot be your opponent's character)
  • #76 (52 posts) Q: In the effect of Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees, does "must tap to face any strike" mean: (i) the character cannot opt to take the -3 modification to prowess to remain untapped or (ii) the character must tap when choosing to resolve his strike before the strike sequence?
  • #93 (51 posts) Q: Does Ruse require both a Diplomat and a Scout regardless of which effect is being declared?
  • #43 (47 posts) Q: When a site allows for creatures to be playable as an automatic-attack that "must normally be [playable] keyed to [a]" particular region/site type, must the creature have the corresponding region/site type symbol on the left-hand side of the card or can creatures that are conditionally keyable (e.g., based on region name or the site's site path) in their card text also be played? (e.g., can Morgul-rats be played at Framsburg if Doors of Night is in play?)
  • #43 (47 posts) Q: If conditionally keyable creatures may be played as an automatic attack, must those conditions be met in order to be played as an automatic attack? (e.g., Can Giant Spiders which is keyable to Ruins & Lairs in certain regions but not Anduin Vales be played as an automatic attack at Framsburg in Anduin Vales)
  • #43 (47 posts) Q: When a site allows for creatures to be playable as an automatic-attack that "must normally be [playable] keyed to [a]" particular region/site type, must the keyability requirements of the creature also be met? (e.g., Could Wild Fell Beast be played as an automatic-attack at Framsburg even though "two Shadow-lands in site path are required" and Framsburg allows creatures "playable keyed to Shadow-land"?)
  • #57 (44 posts) Q: For Parsimony of Seclusion, does Agburanar need to be returned to your hand in order to increase the hazard limit by two or can the "return" of Agburanar fail while still increasing the hazard limit by two?
  • #1 (38 posts) Q: Is a company "at the site" after their site of origin is removed or not until the site phase?
  • #98 (34 posts) Q: Does Open to the Summons allow a character to be played in addition to the normal rules for bringing a character into play?
  • #98 (34 posts) Q: Can Open to the Summons be played without playing a character and then a character be played by its effect on a later turn?
  • #49/51 (30 posts) Q: If Master of Wood, Water, or Hill (or Deeper Shadow) targets a region-type symbol of a region, does the effect last (i) indefinitely? (ii) until the end of the turn? Or (iii) until the region card is removed from play (e.g., at the end of the movement/hazard phase)? (iv) some combination?
  • #49/51 (30 posts) Q:If Master of Wood, Water, or Hill (or Deeper Shadow) targets a region-type symbol of a site's site path, does the effect last (i) indefinitely? (ii) until the end of the turn? (iii) until the site is removed from play? (iv) some combination?
  • #77 (26 posts) Q: Does Bow of Alatar allow Alatar to resolve a strike that has already been assigned to another character?
  • #17 (22 posts) Q: What rules cover the order of applying Hazard effects after the end of the turn and before the M/H phase? (e.g., does Morgul Night affect play of Gwaihir's movement effect or bringing of Fallen Alatar into play during the Organization phase?)
  • #81 (20 posts) Q: Will Bring Out Curses Home played on a non-creature (e.g., an Ahunt Dragon) cause "an attack from creature … if creature is playable"?
  • #88 (16 posts) Q: Is Spider of the Morlat defeated (giving MP) when the Spider attack of 2 strikes (+1 strike per Morlat effect) with 10 prowess is defeated?
  • #94 (16 posts) Q: Should the CRF on "Trophies" be re-written based on MPs for Fallen-wizards?
  • #92 (12 posts) Q: Can River be revealed on-guard?
  • #28 (10 posts) Q: Does "at any point" in Twilight allow for Twilight to be declared during resolution of a chain of effects?
  • #47 (7 posts) Q: Can Thing Stolen be played on a later turn after the turn in which the faction is played?
  • #54 (6 posts) Q: For Helms of Iron and Scimitars of Steel, does the particular Nazgul to be discarded need to be specified at declaration or can it be selected at resolution?
  • #2 (5 posts) Q: When a player announces "this company is moving to a face up site already in play," must the player specify which face up site or can the player decide which site to move to later? And, will the face up site only remain on the table (even if another company would discard it) if the player did not specify the face up site?
2019 ARV Submissions and Questions Presented:
Q: is the question
R: is the ruling
S: is the summary.


1 When a Company is at a Site -- the Jabberwock 10/8/2018 16:27:00
Q: Is a company "at the site" after their site of origin is removed or not until the site phase?
R: ICE Digest 60, 88, 93, 111
S: Gameplay is disputed.

2 Movement to a Site in Play -- the Jabberwock 10/8/2018 16:33:00
Q: When a player announces "this company is moving to a face up site already in play," must the player specify which face up site or can the player decide which site to move to later? And, will the face up site only remain on the table (even if another company would discard it) if the player did not specify the face up site?
S: Game play is disputed.

3 Belegaer -- the Jabberwock 10/8/2018 16:47:00
Q: Should Belegaer state "Elven Shores" instead of "Elven Coast"?
S: Game play is not disputed.

4 Attack as a first declared action in chain of effects -- Konrad Klar 11/8/2018 4:41:00
Q1: Should Annotation 15 on Attacks be rewritten because some attacks created by an event card may not be the "first declared action"?
S1: Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Should Annotation 15 on Attacks be rewritten because some attacks triggered by passive conditions may not be the "first declared action"?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

5 Swag -- Konrad Klar 11/8/2018 4:59:00
Q: Can the effect of Swag be used later?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

6 Hidden Haven -- Konrad Klar 11/8/2018 5:12:00
Q: Does the CRF rulings on "Site" prevent Hidden Haven's effect "Other Fallen-wizards may not use this site as a Wizardhaven" from applying to your opponent's version of the site?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

7 Mischief in a Mean Way -- Konrad Klar 11/8/2018 5:19:00
Q: Does the CRF ruling on "Site" prevent Mischief in a Mean Way's effect "Other Fallen-wizards may not use this site as a Wizardhaven" from applying to your opponent's version of the site?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

8 Chambers in the Royal Court -- Konrad Klar 11/8/2018 5:24:00
Q: Does the CRF ruling on "Site" prevent Chambers in the Royal Court's effect "Other Fallen-wizards may not use this site as a Wizardhaven" from applying to your opponent's version of the site?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

9 Passive Conditions -- Konrad Klar 11/8/2018 5:48:00
Q1: Is the "end of phase" not produced within a chain of effects?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Is the passive condition of "becomes wounded" not considered to "exist" in the following chain of effects such that the triggered action would be canceled? E.g., The corruption check of Despair of the Heart would always be canceled and could never happen even when characters are wounded.
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q3: Is the "end of phase" not produced within a chain of effects?

10 Traitor -- Konrad Klar 11/8/2018 6:21:00
Q1: Does the errata to Traitor cause the attack to be canceled per Annotation 9 as Traitor is discarded?
S1: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Should Traitor be errata'd to be discarded after the attack?
S2: Game play is not disputed.

11 Lure of Power -- Konrad Klar 11/24/2018 10:40:00
Q: Should Lure of Power receive Errata to match the CRF Clarification?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

12 Magical Harp -- Konrad Klar 11/24/2018 10:54:00
Q1: Does Magical Harp work during the Free Council?
R1: ICE Digest 100; Challenge Deck C: Yes.

Q2: Should Magical Harp receive errata so that the effect lasts "until the end of the Free Council"?
S2: Game play is not disputed.

13 Dragons -- Konrad Klar 11/25/2018 0:47:00

Q1: Are automatic attacks created by At Home dragons not considered to be a manifestation of a unique Dragon per the CRF Ruling on Dragons?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Should the CRF on "Dragons" be changed?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

14 Orc Mail (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 11/25/2018 1:13:00
Q: Should the CRF ruling to Orc Mail be changed to ensure compatibility with any hypothetical future releases?
S: Game play is not disputed.

15 Influence attempts made by a Fallen-wizard player -- Konrad Klar 11/25/2018 1:48:00
Q: Should the rules on Influence Attempts for Fallen Wizard's be changed?
S: The needs and benefits of the changes are disputed.

16 Witch-king of Angmar -- Konrad Klar 11/25/2018 3:04:00
Q1: Is there a difference between "becomes" and "treated as" in the game?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Does the existing language of Witch-king of Angmar allow for its effects to last after it is discarded?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q3: Should Witch-king of Angmar receive errata to change "become" to "treated as"?
S3: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

17 Annotation 26 -- Konrad Klar 11/25/2018 3:13:00
Q1: Does the order of applying hazard effects set by the hazard player per Annotation 26 end at the end of the turn such that it doesn't apply until the beginning of the M/H phase?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: What rules cover the order of applying Hazard effects after the end of the turn and before the M/H phase? (e.g., does Morgul Night affect play of Gwaihir's movement effect or bringing of Fallen Alatar into play during the Organization phase?)
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

18 Elven Cloak -- Konrad Klar 11/25/2018 3:20:00
Q: Should Elven Cloak receive errata to change "the strike must be keyed to Wilderness" to "the strike must be from an attack keyed to Wilderness"?
S: Game play is not disputed.

19 News of the Shire -- Konrad Klar 11/26/2018 10:29:00
Q: Should News of the Shire receive errata to match the CRF rulings?
S: Game play is not disputed.

20 Targets Konrad Klar -- 11/26/2018 10:43:00
Q: Can you target your opponent's sites with your own resources (e.g., play Hidden Haven on opponent's site)?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

21 Wizardhaven -- Konrad Klar 11/26/2018 10:55:00
Q: Should the CRF ruling on "Wizardhaven" be changed to say "If a character in your company is influencing against your opponent" instead of "if you are influencing against your opponent"?
S: Game play is not disputed.

22 Untapping of site -- Konrad Klar 11/27/2018 1:45:00
Q1: Would an effect untapping a site (e.g., Dwarven Ring of Durin's Tribe) cause multiple Haven site cards to untap?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Would an effect untapping a site (e.g., Dwarven Ring of Durin's Tribe) cause your opponent's copy of the same site to untap?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

23 Skill Cards Konrad Klar -- 11/27/2018 2:57:00
Q: Does the CRF ruling on "skill cards" apply to cards stating "wizard only" such that those cards require the character to have the "wizard" skill?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

24 The White Hand: a cards that may not be included in deck -- Konrad Klar 11/27/2018 3:35:00
Q: Should "Sauron" be added to the MEWH list of cards that may not be included in a Fallen Wizard deck?
S: Game play is not disputed.

25 Under-deeps (The Wind Throne) -- Konrad Klar 11/27/2018 4:05:00
Q: Is The Wind Throne as a Wizardhaven considered to be adjacent to an Under-deeps site?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

26 Thrall of the Voice: multiple on character clarification -- Theo 11/28/2018 20:04:00
Q1: Does the character-playing effect of Thrall of the Voice happen at resolution of playing Thrall or can you decide to use the character playing effect later?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: Can another character be played during the organization phase before or after a character is played using Thrall's character playing effect? That is, is Thrall's character-playing effect in lieu of the normal ability character playing?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q3: Can multiple Thralls can be placed on the same character?
S3: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q4: Can the character playing effect of that same Thrall be used again after a character has been played by its ability?
S4: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

27 Annotation 25a-- Konrad Klar 12/2/2018 2:08:00
Q1: If a company's site of origin is not removed, does that mean that the company's M/H phase cannot end?
1S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: If the following company is not moving, may they not play resources during their M/H phase?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

28 Twilight -- Konrad Klar 12/3/2018 8:01:00
Q1: Does "at any point" in Twilight allow for Twilight to be declared during resolution of a chain of effects?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: If Twilight can be declared during resolution of a chain of effects, would Twilight's chain of effects be considered "the same chain of effects" as the already resolving chain of effects or would it be a different chain of effects?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

29 A Chance Meeting -- Konrad Klar 12/10/2018 1:08:00
Q: Can A Chance Meeting be used to play a character that is restricted by its text from bringing into play outside his home site? That is, can A Chance Meeting be used to play Fram Framson?
R: ICE Digest 116: Q: Can Fram be played with A Chance Meeting? A: Yes.

30 Adûnaphel -- Konrad Klar 12/10/2018 4:07:00
Q1: Can Adûnaphel's tapping effect be used on a character in a company that is not taking their M/H phase?
R1: ICE Digest 55; ICE FAQ: Adunaphel can only target characters in the company currently taking their movement/hazard phase.
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Should Adûnaphel receive errata to state "causes one character to tap" instead of "causes any one character to tap"?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

31 Agents and Havens -- Konrad Klar 12/12/2018 2:55:00
Q: Should the CRF ruling on agents be rewritten to account for hypothetical agents?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

32 An Untimely Brood -- Konrad Klar 12/13/2018 7:02:00
Q: Does An Untimely Brood prevent the player from playing more than "non-unique ally with a mind of 1"? Meaning, is the allowance also a restriction?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

33 Determining a presence of a site (of given type) in game -- Konrad Klar 12/15/2018 11:39:00
Q1: If the site-type of a player's Lossadan Cairn in play is changed from Ruins & Lairs (e.g., by Hold Rebuilt and Repaired), does Trouble on All Borders played on that player's Ice-orcs still affect Forochel and its adjacent regions? And which copies of the sites matter?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: If an Orc/Troll faction in play is playable at a site that is normally not a Darkhold, does that faction count for purposes of Great Army of the North if the site type of that site is in play and has been changed to a Darkhold (e.g., by Witch-king of Angmar)? And which copies of the sites matter?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

34 Noble Hound -- Konrad Klar 12/18/2018 9:29:00
Q: Can Noble Hound be assigned a strike from Carrion Feeders if Noble Hound is wounded?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

35 Gollum's Fate (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 12/18/2018 9:41:00
Q: Should Gollum's Fate be changed to allow for it to be played using your opponent's Gollum?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

36 Morgul-horse (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 12/20/2018 9:48:00
Q: Can the resource player prevent Morgul-horse from ever being played by continually demanding to start the following chain of effects, thereby preventing the Nazgul from immediately being played per the CRF on Morgul-horse?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

37 Unattaped state as active condition and "tap" as main effect -- Konrad Klar 12/24/2018 12:03:00
Q1: If a resource card effect taps a character or a site (without stating "to" perform some action), is the tapping action an active condition performed at declaration or is the tapping action performed at resolution?

Q2: If the tapping is not an active condition, should a clarification be issued requiring the character/site to be untapped at resolution?

Q3: If the tapping is an Active Condition, can actions performed to satisfy Active Conditions cause the Playability Conditions to fail?

S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

38 WITHDRAWN - Standard Modifications (overhaul) -- Konrad Klar 12/25/2018 21:47:00
Q1: Should the rules on standard modifications be changed?

Q2: In cross-alignment influencing of an opponent's faction, do the standard modifications on the card apply? (e.g., would a minion man get +1 when attempting to influencing away hero Angmarim? Would a hero get +2 when attempting to influence minion Angmarim if the Hillmen faction were in play?)

39 Detainment attacks -- Konrad Klar 12/27/2018 22:09:00
Q: Should the rules on Detainment Attacks in the MELE Rulesbook be changed to specify "against a minion company"?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

40 Neither so Ancient Nor so Potent -- Konrad Klar 1/5/2019 2:51:00
Q: Can Neither so Ancient Nor Potent be played on your own resource?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

41 Treason the Greatest Foe -- Konrad Klar 1/5/2019 3:22:00
Q: Should the text of Treason the Greatest Foe be changed to say "choose the hero"?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

42 The Dark Power -- Konrad Klar 1/5/2019 6:02:00
Q: When influencing an opponent's faction, does The Dark Power shuffle the opponent's faction into your deck?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

43 Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions) -- Konrad Klar 1/6/2019 9:34:00
Q1: When a site allows for creatures to be playable as an automatic-attack that "must normally be [playable] keyed to [a]" particular region/site type, must the creature have the corresponding region/site type symbol on the left-hand side of the card or can creatures that are conditionally keyable (e.g., based on region name or the site's site path) in their card text also be played? (e.g., can Morgul-rats be played at Framsburg if Doors of Night is in play?)

Q2: If conditionally keyable creatures may be played as an automatic attack, must those conditions be met in order to be played as an automatic attack? (e.g., Can Giant Spiders which is keyable to Ruins & Lairs in certain regions but not Anduin Vales be played as an automatic attack at Framsburg in Anduin Vales)

Q3: When a site allows for creatures to be playable as an automatic-attack that "must normally be [playable] keyed to [a]" particular region/site type, must the keyability requirements of the creature also be met? (e.g., Could Wild Fell Beast be played as an automatic-attack at Framsburg even though "two Shadow-lands in site path are required" and Framgburg allows creatures "playabled keyed to Shadow-land"?)

S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

44 Liquid Fire -- Khamul the Easterling 1/6/2019 11:29:00
Q: Should Liquid Fire be changed from "body-checks for the creature are modified by -2" to "body-checks for the creature are modified by +2."
S: Benefit is disputed.

45 Saruman's Machinery -- Konrad Klar 1/8/2019 1:18:00
Q: Can more than one technology item be played during the site phase using Saruman's Machinery? That is, is the allowance of "one" also a restriction to "one"?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

46 Sable Shield (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 1/9/2019 3:43:00
Q: Will non-wounding strikes (e.g., detainment, Neeker Breeker, Thief, etc) cause the roll for potentially discarding Sable Shield?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

47 Thing Stolen -- Konrad Klar 1/9/2019 5:57:00
Q: Can Thing Stolen be played on a later turn after the turn in which the faction is played?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

48 Playing regions face-up -- Konrad Klar 1/9/2019 10:33:00
Q: Do resources that require region cards to be played face up (e.g., Refuge and Wondrous Maps) require players using a map instead of region cards to play region cards or at least determine their site path in the organization phase?
S: Game play is not disputed.

49 Master of Wood, Water, or Hill -- Konrad Klar 1/12/2019 3:46:00
Q1: If Master of Wood, Water, or Hill targets a region-type symbol of a region, does the effect last (i) indefinitely? (ii) until the end of the turn? Or (iii) until the region card is removed from play (e.g., at the end of the movement/hazard phase)? (iv) some combination?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: If Master of Wood, Water, or Hill targets a region-type symbol of a site's site path, does the effect last (i) indefinitely? (ii) until the end of the turn? (iii) until the site is removed from play? (iv) some combination?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

50 A Panoply of Wings -- Konrad Klar 1/12/2019 3:52:00
Q: Does the effect making information playable by A Panoply of Wings last (i) indefinitely, (ii) until the end of the end of the turn, or (iii) some other duration?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

51 Deeper Shadow -- Konrad Klar 1/12/2019 4:04:00
Q1: If Deeper Shadow targets a region-type symbol of a region, does the effect last (i) indefinitely? (ii) until the end of the turn? Or (iii) until the region card is removed from play (e.g., at the end of the movement/hazard phase)?(iv) some combination?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: If Deeper Shadow targets a region-type symbol of a site's site path, does the effect last (i) indefinitely? (ii) until the end of the turn? (iii) until the site is removed from play? (iv) some combination?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

52 Non-minion agents as creatures -- Theo 1/13/2019 19:48:00
Q: Should the CRF ruling on Deck Construction be changed to clarify when agents count as half creatures and when they do not?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

53 Many Turns and Doublings -- Konrad Klar 1/14/2019 10:00:00
Q1: Is Many Turns and Doublings played on (e.g., targeting) the Ranger?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Can the attack be canceled if the ranger is not present in the company facing the attack?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

54 Helms of Iron, Scimitars of Steel #1 -- Konrad Klar 1/18/2019 1:54:00
Q: Does the particular Nazgul to be discarded need to be specified at declaration or can it be selected at resolution?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

55 Skill cards target character with skill -- Theo 1/18/2019 16:16:00
Q1: Do cards stating "<Skill> only" require targeting the character with the skill? (e.g., the Skilled character cannot be your opponent's character)
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: Is <Skill> sometimes just a keyword?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

56 Effects of a using a Palantír (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 1/22/2019 12:51:00
Q: When using the abilities/duplicating the effects of one Palantir by another Palantir, does the bearer using the Palantir need to make two corruption checks?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

57 Parsimony of Seclusion -- Konrad Klar 1/28/2019 11:22:00
Q: Does Agburanar need to be returned to your hand in order to increase the hazard limit by two or can the "return" of Agburanar fail while still increasing the hazard limit by two?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

58 Icy Touch (errata + clarification) -- Konrad Klar 1/28/2019 11:57:00
Q: Should the CRF on "ICY Touch" describing the triggering be reworded?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

59 Farmer Maggot -- Konrad Klar 1/28/2019 12:16:00
Q: Should Farmer Maggot be changed/able to cancel attacked that may not be canceled?
S: Benefits are disputed.

60 Incite Denizens (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 1/28/2019 12:41:00
Q: Should the CRF on "Incite Denizens" be changed to account for multiple cards creating/removing attacks (e.g., An Ahunt Dragon removing the attack of an At Home Dragon)?
S: Game play is not disputed.

61 WITHDRAWN: Aware of Their Ways (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 1/29/2019 10:24:00
Q: If a resource used as a site is removed from play, does that prevent that card (if it were used as a "site") from be retrieved if the company must return to its origin site (e.g., due to company composition issues).
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

62 Desire All for Thy Belly (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 1/29/2019 10:31:00
Q: If a resource used as a site is removed from play, does that prevent that card (if it were used as a "site") from be retrieved if the company must return to its origin site (e.g., due to company composition issues).
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

63 Placing Corruption Cards -- Theo 1/31/2019 12:10:00
Q: Does a Corruption card that "places" itself on a character if some condition is met count as "playing" a corruption card on that character for the 1-per-turn limit?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

64 They Ride Together (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 2/12/2019 3:00:00
Q: Should the CRF on "They Ride Together" be changed to clarify that company size is not limited to 7 at a Darkhaven?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

65 Using MELE with METW - Deck Construction -- Konrad Klar 2/14/2019 7:17:00
Q: Should the MELE "Deck Construction" rules be rewritten to use "minion" instead of "Ringwraith" and make other minor changes?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

66 Effects played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company -- Konrad Klar 2/17/2019 7:38:00
Q: Do Annotations 9 and 10 on Passive Conditions cover effects played at the end of the Organization Phase?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

67 Here, There, or Yonder -- Theo 2/18/2019 19:28:00
Q: Should the card be rewritten to say that the Ally "would not be discarded" instead of "is not restricted from moving"?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

68 WITHDRAWN - Wizard's Trove (ME The White Hand) -- CDavis7M 2/19/2019 23:14:00
Q: Must the resource already be storable? Must the storing-conditions be met?
R: ICE Digest 34, 510, 523. The card must normally be storable according to the card's conditions.

69 Fallen-wizard – playability of different versions of the same site -- Shapeshifter 2/21/2019 7:16:00
Q: Should the CRF on "Fallen-wizards" be changed to clarify that your opponent can have a particular version of the site in play/discard but you may not have duplicate versions of the site in play/discard?
S1: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

70 Playing a card -- Konrad Klar 2/24/2019 7:25:00
Q: Should the CRF on "playing a card" be changed to account for cards not played from hand?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

71 People Diminished -- Konrad Klar 2/24/2019 7:36:00
Q: Does People Diminished (and Lord Usurper) allow for a character in a second company to tap after a first company faces the attack?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

72 Order of an actions caused by effects of cards not in play -- Konrad Klar 2/25/2019 0:39:00
Q: Do attacks and bonuses created by non-event cards (bonus of Chill Douser, bonus of Uruk Lieutenant, attack Mountains of Shadow) use the rules on Passive Conditions?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

73 Gothmog (clarification) -- Konrad Klar 2/25/2019 5:22:00
Q: Should the CRF on "Gothmog" be rewritten to account for Gothmog played as a creature?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

74 Actions created by playing an item -- Konrad Klar 2/25/2019 7:37:00
Q: Are attacks caused by items (e.g., the trap attacks of Lost Tome and Forgotten scrolls) triggered to be the first declared action in the following chain of effects?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

75 WITHDRAWN - Face Out of Sight -- Konrad Klar 2/25/2019 7:54:00
Q: Does Face Out of Sight work once or is it a persistent effect?
A: ICE Digest 100: [On guard cards] can be played, but they are immediately returned to your hand

76 Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees -- Konrad Klar 2/25/2019 10:50:00
Q: In the effect of Fifteen Birds in Five Firtrees, does "must tap to face any strike" mean: (i) the character cannot opt to take the -3 modification to prowess to remain untapped or (ii) the character must tap when choosing to resolve his strike before the strike sequence?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

77 Bow of Alatar -- Moriquendi 2/26/2019 12:15:00
Q: Does Bow of Alatar allow Alatar to resolve a strike that has already been assigned to another character?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

78 Secrets of Their Forging -- Zakath 2/26/2019 15:22:00
Q: Should Secrets of Their Forging receive errata to allow for play of a ring using Whispers of Rings (similar to CoE riling for Ringlore)
S: Changed are not disputed.

79 Echo of All Joy + Peril Returned -- Theo 3/14/2019 13:02:00
Q: Should Echo of All Joy be discarded when the Peril Return causes Doors of Night to be considered to be in play? (related to the CoE ruling on Will of Sauron).
A: ICE Digest 97: It's not the discard of a particular card that discards other cards, it's the change in the game state from Will of Sauron to not WoS.

80 POSTPONE 2020 - Memories Recalled -- CDavis7M 3/15/2019 15:37:00
Q: Is this card actually "not played" similar to how Will Shaken is "not played"?
S: Game play is not disputed.

81 Bring Our Curses Home + Ahunts -- Theo 3/15/2019 21:25:00
Q: Will Bring Out Curses Home played on a non-creature (e.g., an Ahunt Dragon) cause "an attack from creature … if creature is playable"?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

82 WITHDRAWN - Gift of Comprehension -- Sam.Gamdschie 3/16/2019 14:53:00
Q: Should this card be changed to be more useful?
S: Needs/Benefits are disputed.

83 WITHDRAWN - Lore of the Ages -- Sam.Gamdschie 3/16/2019 14:58:00
Q: Should this card be changed to be more useful?
S: Needs/Benefits are disputed.

84 WITHDRAWN - Mathom Lore -- Sam.Gamdschie 3/16/2019 15:04:00
Q: Should this card be changed to be more useful?
S: Needs/Benefits are disputed.

85 WITHDRAWN - Tales of the Hunt -- Sam.Gamdschie 3/16/2019 15:08:00
Q: Should this card be changed to be more useful?
S: Needs/Benefits are disputed.

86 Isles of the Dead That Live -- Konrad Klar 3/18/2019 2:38:00
Q: Should "A covert company must tap an untapped character" on minion Isles of the Dead becaused to "overt" instead of "covert" similar to other minion coastal sites?
S: Needs/Benefits are disputed.

87 Fallen-wizards using characters with > 5 mind. -- the Jabberwock 3/21/2019 21:38:00
Q: Can fallen-wizards have and use a character with greater than 5 mind?
A: ICE Digest 42, 78, 81: Fallen Wizard's may have and use 6 mind characters (e.g., they can use them for An Unexpected Party).

88 Spider of the Morlat -- the Jabberwock 3/21/2019 21:56:00
Q: Is Spider of the Morlat defeated (giving MP) when the Spider attack of 2 strikes (+1 strike per Morlat effect) with 10 prowess is defeated?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

89 Tempest of Fire -- Konrad Klar 3/24/2019 0:43:00
Q: Does Tempest of Fire allow for a character in a second company to tap after a first company faces the attack?
S: Text interpretation is not disputed. Game play is not disputed.

90 Framsburg (Hero site) -- Sam.Gamdschie 3/24/2019 8:01:00
Q: Should Framsburg receive errata to state "a single Shadow-land" instead of "Shadow-land"?
S: Needs and Benefits are disputed. See ARV on "Creatures played as an automatic-attack"

91 Thrall of the Voice: Character Play Restrictions -- the Jabberwock 3/24/2019 12:58:00
Q1: Does Thrall of the Voice allow Orcs and Trolls to be played?
R: ICE Digest 55: Q: Can Thrall of the Voice be played to play a Troll character when Bad Company is not in play? A: No.
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: Does Thrall of the Voice require the character to be brought into their play at a haven or their homesite per the normal rules for bringing characters into play? Or can the character be played at any site?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

92 RIVER on-guard -- the Jabberwock 4/5/2019 11:39:00
Q: Can River be revealed on-guard?
R: ICE Netrep: Q: can you play River on Guard? A: From the CRF on-guard section, "a card cannot be revealed that forces a company to do nothing during the site phase." So you could place the card on-guard, but you could never reveal it.
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

93 RUSE -- the Jabberwock 4/5/2019 12:29:00
Q: Does Ruse require both a Diplomat and a Scout regardless of which effect is being declared?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

94 MPs for Trophies -- Theo 4/12/2019 21:33:00
Q: Should the CRF on "Trophies" be re-written based on MPs for Fallen-wizards?
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

95 The Under-gates -- Khamul the Easterling 4/14/2019 9:55:00
Q: Should the automatic-attack be changed so that the "Balrog" is created/removed based instead of being "canceled"?
S: Needs and benefits not disputed.

96 Agent movement -- Khamul the Easterling 4/22/2019 4:23:00
Q: Should the rules be changed so that Udun and Dagorlad are always adjacent for agent movement (even for agents played by non-minion players)?
S: Needs and benefits are disputed.

97 WITHDRAWN - Hidden Knife -- Khamul the Easterling 4/22/2019 10:50:00
Q1: Can hidden knight be played and work against an agent when the agent is revealed and attacks during the site phase?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.

Q2: Should hidden knife be changed to be playable outside of the site-phase?
S2: Needs and benefits are disputed.

98 Open to the Summons -- the Jabberwock 5/15/2019 12:59:00
Q1: Does Open to the Summons allow a character to be played in addition to the normal rules for bringing a character into play?
S1: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

Q2: Can Open to the Summons be played without playing a character and then a character be played by its effect on a later turn?
S2: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

99 Fallen Wizard MPs for Palantirs -- rezwits 5/15/2019 14:32:00
Q: Should the CRF be removed that prevents Fallen Wizards from getting MP for Palantír of Orthanc and Palantír of Elostirion?
S: Needs and benefits are disputed.

100 Distribution of Direct Influence -- the Jabberwock 5/15/2019 15:13:00
Q: Does the phrase "+3 direct influence against Dwarves and Dwarf factions" (i) give +3 DI usable against characters or factions, or (ii) give +3 DI against characters and +3 DI against factions?
R: ICE FAQ: Q: If I have a +3 direct influence against Orcs and Orc factions, and I'm using it to control an Orc, can I use it at the same time to influence an Orc faction? A: No. It can be used for one or the other, but not both at the same time. Note that you can use 2 of it for Orcs, and 1 for Orc factions, but not 3 for each at the same time.
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

101 WITHDRAWN - Duration of Short Events -- the Jabberwock 5/15/2019 15:29:00
Q: If a short event does not indicate a duration, does the effect last until the end of the turn?
S: Perhaps this better treated on an individual basis.

102 Wizard's Trove -- the Jabberwock 5/15/2019 15:44:00
Q: Is Sapling of the White Tree discarded when The White Tree is played with Wizard's Trove?
R: ICE Digest 81: Q: WT says to ignore the text on WT when using WT to play it. Does this include the Sage requirement? The discarding of the Sapling? A: Yes and yes
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is disputed.

103 The Ithil-Stone -- the Jabberwock 5/15/2019 16:05:00
Q: Should The Ithil-stone be changed to state "a manifestation of the lidless eye"?
S: Needs and Benefits are not disputed.

104 Reversion of Site Types -- the Jabberwock 5/15/2019 20:49:00
Q: When a card causing Fallen Wizards to use different alignment sites is removed from play, when does the Fallen Wizard begin using site cards of the alignment that they would normally use according to other rules and effect? (e.g., Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, etc.)
S: Text interpretation is disputed. Game play is not disputed.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:24 am determined whether there is an actual dispute about game play, not just a dispute about the interpretation of the cards or the rules.
Can you explain what you mean by this?

For example, checking the threads I started, you said #52 does not affect game play... is deck construction then not a part of game play? Also confused by your evaluation of #63, where we actually have multiple forums worth of evidence about this being contentious.
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CDavis7M
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#52 and #63 are non-issues that suffer from the same deficiency as most of the proposals: a believer of an invalid premise proposes an unneeded change that corresponds with how the game is already played (i.e., no one is arguing for the invalid premise), where the proposal likely has unforeseen conflicts with existing rules. So not only is there nothing to be gained by a community vote but doing so gives credence to the invalid premise leading to further confusion.
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Theo
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How much discussion would be sufficient for you to feel better about unforeseen conflicts with existing rules?

I'm guessing you don't realize the limitations of your own claims. You can call my and others' premises invalid as you like, but claiming that we don't exist to believe in them is rather easily contradicted.
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CDavis7M
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Regardless of whether the premise is valid or not, a proposal is a non-issue if it advocates for the status quo.
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Theo
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From the Council Chair on proposing the new (adopted) charter:
The above language caused the ROC all kinds of problems last year during the 2018 ARV. Specifically, it was difficult to determine which ballot items should be given the "status quo" label and which should not. ... I propose eliminating the status quo language altogether.
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CDavis7M
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I'm referring to the posters (known opinions), not to all players of this game worldwide (unknown opinions).
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