FW Orc/Troll Still Without Trophies

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Theo
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Recall from CoE Erratum #31, the addition:
CoE Erratum #31 wrote:Unless otherwise outlined below, Orc and Troll characters in play by a Fallen-wizard player are subject to the rules for Orc and Troll characters in play by a minion player, and companies containing an Orc or Troll are subject to the rules for company composition for a minion player.
The ballot particularly mentioned:
2018 ARV BALLOT ITEM # 34 wrote:However, some rules from the ME:LE Rules applying to minion characters and companies are not mentioned in the ME:WH Rules. These are:
- "Orc scouts only count half towards a company's size (round up)."
- "Unless at a Darkhaven, a company may only contain one leader."
- "If one of your minion companies defeat a creature, you may place the creature's card under the control of any Orc or Troll character that faced a strike from the creature's attack."
However, the mechanism for taking trophies is entirely framed in the context of minion companies (as appearing in the underlined portion above). Fallen Wizard orcs and trolls are not in minion companies (except for the purposes of "hazards that can only attack/affect minion companies"-MEWH). So there are still no rules allowing FW orcs and trolls to take trophies.

This has consequences for this ARV 2019 proposal.
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CDavis7M
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Oh yeah. Brandobras mentioned this elsewhere re 2018 vote on FW orcs. This probably could use clarification but I think the intent is pretty clear.

Parts I and II of the MELE rules are discussing minion companies (Wizards and METW are discussed later). That excerpt on trophies is from the normal rules for minions, not the wizard/hero rules. The sentence could easily have said:

"If one of your minion companies defeat a creature, you may place the creature's card under the control of any Orc or Troll character that faced a strike from the creature's attack."

The use of the term "minion" has no meaning on the sentence at all. Given that WH came out later, I don't think we can impart any meaning to Fallen Wizards. Plus. CRF Rulings by Term - Trophies says "Trophies in Fallen-wizard companies give prowess and influence bonuses based on the MPs printed on the card."

Presumably covert (counterfeit) orcs, now-half-orcs, can still take trophies. But trophies do not make a company overt from what I can see (though they probably should for "simulation").
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Bandobras Took
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Half-orcs could never take trophies and still can't. Counterfeit means they're a half-orc for *all* purposes.

"Minion companies" is redundant, but it's still turning out that trying to patch FW Orcs and Trolls to abide by a set of rules not actually written for them is going to require more work. :)

We have to go with what the rule actually says, not what it might have said. Lots of things in the game might have been said differently. Rather than try to twist a sentence to make it say something it doesn't, just propose an erratum. That's the whole point of the process.
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CDavis7M
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Good points.
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Theo
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Bandobras Took wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:23 pm Half-orcs could never take trophies and still can't.
What? Half-orcs are still orcs, and can take trophies under the normal trophy rules.
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Bandobras Took
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Oh, do White Hand rules not apply to Ringwraiths? That hardly seems fair.
MEWH wrote:Half-orcs cannot take trophies. However, for all other purposes a Half-orc is considered an Orc.
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CDavis7M
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Ha! Looking at it again, I'd say "No." At least not the Special Orc & Troll Rules. These seem to be listing FW specific rules. And they are separate from the other FW character rules (eg 5 mind or less) for readability (because most FW characters will not be orcs).

The rule at the top regarding Overt Allies would seem to apply to Ringwraiths. BUT this rule was actually duplicated into the CRF. Presumably the CRF duplicate is needed only if the Special Orc rules section didn't apply to Ringwraiths.

But you would think that Half Orcs and men should be covert in RW companies.


Kjeld
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Considering the question thematically, taking trophies should only be allowed for characters in overt companies. Generally speaking, trolls and orcs are always in overt companies. Half-orcs introduced a problem: they can be in overt or covert companies. It would seem that I.C.E. dealt with this ambiguity by declaring that half-orcs can never have trophies, skirting the overt/covert problem. However, this solution doesn't make much sense thematically, because why shouldn't half-orcs in overt companies be able to express their orcish nature by taking trophies? Again, this interpretation is assuming that the rule arose because it didn't make sense to allow trophies in covert companies.
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Bandobras Took
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CDavis7M wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:36 pm Ha! Looking at it again, I'd say "No." At least not the Special Orc & Troll Rules. These seem to be listing FW specific rules.
Funny, that's not how *Ringwraith* Specific rules seem to work.

There were no half-orcs in any set but WH. It makes at least as much sense for the rules that apply to them there to apply to them even if controlled by a RW/Balrog player as it does for the RW rules to apply to Orcs controlled by a FW.
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CDavis7M
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Right? The FW alignment inherits some rules from METW and MELE by the MEWH rules (notably not the MELE orc rules, which is why there was the whole discussion last year).

But it seems like wizards and Ringwraiths didn't inherit some important MEWH rules ( half orcs) because they are listed as FW rules.
This seems unintentional but I didn't see any discussion on it in the ice digests.
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Bandobras Took
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That's not precise. Without the CoE erratum, FWs inherit *no* rules from MELE. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

MELE rules that apply equally regardless of alignment are the non-bulleted ones. These are not inherited; they are universal. FWs inherit METW rules, but no others. (Except, again, the erratum trying -- and apparently failing -- to make Orcs/Trolls controlled by a FW the exact same as Orcs/Trolls controlled by a RW). The MELE rules take precedence in such cases because they were "written with refinements in language and organization." Same rules, better wording and layout.

Which is why, if you break down that division, it should go both ways. RWs/Balrog players should inherit the FW rules for half-orcs. It makes as much sense as FWs inheriting Ringwraith rules.
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CDavis7M
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Well, the MELE wizard rules apply.

Image

But yeah,I agree with your thought. (My "right?" was in agreement)

Also, bullet use doesn't seem consistent. Are they merely changes? Or Ringwraith only rules?

Image


Ah... hm... Image

Image

... Part IV itself is bulleted. Presumably this indicates a major change as it clearly includes rules for wizards also.

And these corruption rules seem more like changes. I don't think they were intended to only apply to Ringwraith players.

Image


The bullets are pretty inconsistent but I think the meaning is there (without taking any meaning from the bullets).
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Bandobras Took
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The bullets are consistent, so far as I can tell -- using METW with MELE can't occur without a RW player.

The first note concerns MELE vs MELE, assuring long-time players that they only need look over the notable differences between METW play and MELE to be good to go. These are changes that are Ringwraith only. METW play remains unchanged in these regards.

All of the bulleted sections before Using MELE With METW denote changes from what would have been familiar to a METW player, from minor (Ringwraiths in the deck instead of Wizards) to moderate (starting site) to large (company composition limitations).

Thus, when you hit using MELE with METW, the chapter title is bulleted -- as mentioned, you have to have a RW player for those rules to be in force (I do not believe that means the entire section is bulleted). But they went out of their way to make sure that people understood that the bulleted rules do not apply to Wizards -- they are RW only. And then a helpful paragraph to explain how to use the rules that follow (note, for example, that this is place where we find the rule that Nazgul hazards are discarded by the play of RW followers -- it's not in the standard MELE rules because Nazgul hazards are not part of MELE).

The only break I've found in what is otherwise a consistent pattern is pp. 33 and 62, which contain a note about a Wizard player not receiving MPs from a * creature.

The short of the long wind? They are both changes *and* RW-only rules. They describe how RW play changes compared to Wizard play. FWs were supposed to follow Wizard play until people voted otherwise.

Edit:

Note also on p. 42: "Clarification: If an attack from a Dragon faction is defeated, remove the Dragon from play. No player received its marshalling points."

This is bulleted in the MELE section, compared with what is found in MELE with METW:

"If a hero company defeats an attack by a Ringwraith's Dragon faction, the hero receives its marshalling points as kill marshalling points."

This would be a contradiction if p. 42 weren't bulleted. Because there are the bullets, p. 84 is correct and consistent.
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Bandobras Took
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Solved: The Balrog Rules Summary makes the Trophy rules of universal application for Orc/Troll characters (no mention of hero/minion companies, no bullets), and that the benefits are based on the MP values printed on the card, regardless of the presence or lack of a * or the actual score received. This would seem to be the basis for decisions going forward.
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Theo
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Summaries are not a solid basis for rule revision. If they contained all of the details, there would be no reason to call them summaries.
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