Middle-earth: The Northern Waste

Moderators: Thorsten the Traveller, Vastor Peredhil

Should Middle-earth: The Northern Waste (MENW) be made fully compatible with standard DC gaming?

1) All MENW cards should be allowed in a DCGO format.
29
60%
2a) MENW sites should not be allowed in a DCGO format (but characters, resources and hazards should).
0
No votes
2b) MENW characters and sites should not be allowed in a DCGO format (but resources and hazards should).
1
2%
2c) MENW characters, sites and hazards should not be allowed in a DCGO format (but resources should).
0
No votes
3) Some MENW cards should be allowed in a DCGO format, others should not (the designers decide case by case).
14
29%
4) MENW cards should be reserved for scenario use only.
4
8%
 
Total votes: 48
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CDavis7M
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Roll a 3 for 5 mind Gloin to influence 3MP B.M. Dwarves
Roll a 5 for 6 mind Theoden to influence 3MP Riders of Rohan
Roll a 6 for 6 mind Raudabern to influence 2MP Berningas

I'd risk rolling a 2 or 3 all day, and a 4 for 2MP no problem. But risking a roll of 5 or less is a big ask because now I feel like I need an influence booster, which is taking up space, I'm waiting to draw it. And I'm probably not be playing other factions that need boosters. Like if I am playing Beornings or Bees, they do not need influence it. So then put 1 muster in my deck?

Berningas must have a great effect right? No, no it doesn't. It cancels a bear attack against a company in the Northern Waste. There are 3 bear creatures that can attack with 2 not being playable in the NW. And the 1 bear creature that can attack, if you are playing Raudabern you are most likely not wanting to cancel the attack with Berningas, you will be making the bear an Ally with Peaceful Coexistance.

Cancellation of Skin Changers is nice, but its contingent on tapping, so you can still get sent back.

---

And then going back to Raudabern, he is just a crappy Beorn and redundant. Raudabern has 1 less mind, but 2 less prowess and 1 less body. Raudabern's effect seems nice but all it does is let him have the same prowess as real Beorn when Beorn is wounded. And Beorn can Muster the Berninga's... Raudabern is another Warrior/Ranger. Worse than Beorn, worse than Grimbeorn...

---

It's also a disappointment that there is really no viable Berning/Umit deck that you can build. Draw Swords is not in the released sets so Sprautabern is in the deck, and he is 4 mind so Raudabern cannot control him. You have Galgrinic and he is decent.

But then you have 3 made up Umits. Ukkojalka (apparently the snowmen's name for Ice Giants?) And then Marin and Roin? No idea where they come from but it's not Northern Waste.

But then Isarnabloma is actually mentioned in NW as a Berning warrioress, and she doesn't get included.

----

Anyway, just having trouble playtesting NW because I can't actually design a deck that is not Tears of Yavanna or Friends of Winter. It seems like the design space is so small for MENW cause, also, the sites are not that great. There is no reason for a non-NW deck to go to the NW besides Helecthil, Light of the North.

I just can't build a Northern Waste deck that is better than the MERP NW's Sample Deck for MECCG. Berningas, Umli Traders, and Galgrin's Hammer are just not going to B.M. Dwarves, Rangers of the North, and Orcrist.
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CDavis7M
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How is Cembereth supposed to work?

Image

The Easy Way:
  • Start at Evermist
  • Tap 3 elves to place 3 Saplings with Cembereth.
  • Enjoy your easy 3 MP from the 3 Saplings and go about your business.
The Hard Way:
  • Start at Evermist
  • Tap 3 few elves to place 3 Saplings with Cembereth.
  • Move to a R&L in the NW.
  • Play an item at the site and then tap a Sage to play Banishment so that Banishment doesn't discard itself when you play the item.
  • Alternative 1:
    • Flip Cembereth, which unfortunately means that you can no longer play Banishment at non-Undead sites (there is only 1 Undead site)
    • "Store" one Sapling by placing it with Banishment, giving you the same 1MP you already had when it was placed "off to the side" with Cembereth
    • Fail to play anymore Banishments because Cembereth is not face up.
  • Alternative 2:
    • Don't flip Cembereth, so that you can continue to play Banishments.
    • Realize you cannot store a Sapling because The Greening of the North is not face up.
    • Go to 2 different sites to play Banishment, then flip Cembereth, and then go back to each site AGAIN in order store a Sapling for 0 MP gain.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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bit late, but thanks for the comments, you know we appreciate them, and here some answers:

The Saplings are "off to the side". Cards off to the side do not give MP's. Thus, the easy scenario only happens in your dreams (sorry).
And yes the quest has been adjusted to allow for flipping back and forth, since playing 3x Banishment first and then 3x Saplings would be too tricky. This was done time ago, but we waited with the update until the whole revision was ready.

Raudabern might seem like a poor man's Beorn, however he is a ranger with HS in NW, which in itself has advantages (for decks operating there). He has +2 special DI, so if used properly that makes him cheap for a 6 minder, and he teams up better than Beorn with others, who is 7 mind and cannot control Ukkojalka, only a Karhunkasi.
We might add a bonus vs his faction, not sure it will do much, unless using Muster he is not an influencer, so if he's your only hope to bring the faction in, that's not dependable. In DC usually the avatars do the talking (since they can untap easily). Yes we have other beserker abilities which are better, but this is quite versatile, i.e. it keeps him alive longer. Then again, +2 vs Berning doesn't complicate him either.

In general, we design to give characters an edge in a particular setting, rather than making them on par or better than existing ones. DC is about making things possible in certain (less frequent) situations, not creating cards that all want to use in each and every deck. We already have competetive play to over-use the same limited card pool. Obviously this is not an easy thing to do (without being too repetitive, like giving each character +2 prowess in the Northern Waste). If you got cool ideas, we're happy to hear them. If you truely prefer to use Beorn in your NW deck than Raudabern, and with reasons, then we will need to reconsider. Of course, you can play them both ;-)

Umli are a new RACE, Berninga are not. This justifies adding more of the former, especially since Isarnabloma would (arguably) be a Raudabern copy, which Sprautabern is not. But it was considered and is not entirely off the table, some people would like to see more females in the game. Hence we added also a female Orc (!!). But the character pool must be balanced and is not unlimited. Right now MENW has 9 Men, 6 Elves, 4 Umli and 1 Dunadan (for hero/dual). So you rather see another Man, and fewer Umli? :roll:

There are 2 Umit sites, so that justifies more Umli. Galgrinic and his hammer need subjects to rule over. And we will allow Umli to use Dwarven items, they basically substitute Dwarves in NW decks, thematically, as Dwarves have not much business there. You can give them Dwarven Rings and axes and then they rock.

nb. what is a viable Umli/Berninga strategy? What is a viable Beorn/Dwarf strategy? Umli Traders/ Berninga puts you 2/3 on the way to Alliance between Free Peoples, and Lospindel has interaction with Umli (but not with Isarnabloma). Yes Sprautabern is tricky to start, at least not with Umli. But he can be easily grabbed as an agent (with Nobody's Friend), as well as played with Peaceful Coexistence.

Operating in the NW does not give you the big faction MP's, but big item MP's can still be obtained, allies can be played at tapped sites (Seagull, Giant, Lumipallo), and certain cards make travel there safer (Helecthil, Skis, etc.), which allow you actually to play a roadblock strat. yourself and not be bugged down by it.

nb. Friends of Winter is not a full deck, really, but a quest you can just add to your starting company and which gives some extra MP and tactical bonus. You might do a Canadras King under the Mountain with a Friends of Winter to the side, adding Elves of Evermist for extra MP with Alliance and Profitable Trade. Canadras being a BH (after his death), Friends of Winter works nicely. Nb. Canadras at Home is now considered Agburanar for Parsimony, in case you like to set up a Legendary Hoard.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Thorsten the Traveller
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Work on The Northern Legacy is well underway. The totals for ME: the Northern Waste and ME: Morgoth's Legacy are 312 cards (16 quests), for a play set of 544 cards. Goal is to have a 550 card play set, and hopefully finish the work in about 6 months.
Some time before that we will issue the declaration document (very important!), and people can sign up. But first things first, much must still be done.

Play testing is essential, so please take a look at the cards at cardnum, and make sure to fresh up once in a while.

We'll also be doing some Polls. These are in the development section here .
Check it out and feel free to vote, and of course leave a comment or ask a question.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
Vastor Peredhil
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Big Announcement - Northern Legacy sets both got their second to last update ever - so please go and check it out (there are still 4 Durlach versions to test, we have decide on one or a mix of them) - help us find last mistakes and enjoy the labour we put into it - play testing is key now, so please build decks and give us some feedback

yours Eric and Nicolai
Thuarval
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Vastor Peredhil wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:53 am Big Announcement - Northern Legacy sets both got their second to last update ever - so please go and check it out (there are still 4 Durlach versions to test, we have decide on one or a mix of them) - help us find last mistakes and enjoy the labour we put into it - play testing is key now, so please build decks and give us some feedback

yours Eric and Nicolai
Is final-version Canadras the creature really going to have the same name as Canadras the site? I keep waiting for the change. Canadras: "Playable at Canadras." There is a first for everything, but I feel like this wouldnt be a good first.
Vastor Peredhil
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well it is all part of the story, most dragons get their names from locals, and it is the same here

Canadras means 4 horns, so it can easily be applied to an old castle/palace with 4 remaining towers and a dragon with 4 horns
Thuarval
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Vastor Peredhil wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:41 am well it is all part of the story, most dragons get their names from locals, and it is the same here

Canadras means 4 horns, so it can easily be applied to an old castle/palace with 4 remaining towers and a dragon with 4 horns
Isnt that form over function though? Both cards are unique with the same name. I understand that they are not manifestations of each other, but it seems that it could breed confusion down the line. It does break a unwritten convention (that I believe is a good convention). Even if there is a slight modification to the site's name it would still fit the story.

In Tolkien's world, none of the dragons shared names with places, or vice-versa (at least that I am aware of).
Vastor Peredhil
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well Tolkien only named 4 dragons in all ME, so it was down to many others to come up with them, but Canadras is ICE so we we just took it from there

some could have worked for Gondring, but for Canadras is was just funnier

also we are going to break many a thing, as we already have cards by the same name as hero and minion cards, some are the same others are not

also check out Feätur to what we have down the line ;)
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TomBombadil
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I completely agree with Thuarval above. Creating cards with identical names that are not manifestations of each other only breeds confusion and have little to no upside. Slightly changing names or giving additional titles is straightforward and can even add additional flavour to a card. For example, 'Peaks of Canandras' could be used for the site name (not saying it's the best option, just something that came to mind).
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Thorsten the Traveller
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I take it you are aware that this set is based on the ICE MERP module The Northern Waste? The Canadras site is on the full colour map inserted in that module, created especially for MECCG, so we're taking the site directly from there!

And in the book it is clearly stated that the Dragon is named after the site. It's part of his backstory.
He probably has a very different name for himself, we don't know, but this is what the locals call him.

Is it really such a problem?
Tolkien himself named Fangorn forest after Fangorn the Ent, or was it vice versa? :wink:
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TomBombadil
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Yes, I’m aware of that :wink: I guess it’s a matter of preference, some people prefer that things are literal, some people would prefer slight specifications for practical reasons within the game. I belong to the latter group but do indeed look forward to the new cards regardless
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Thorsten the Traveller
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We're not against making changes to the ICE cards per se. We've changed the artwork and the special of the site. But if you change the site's name, you also invalidate that map insert, basically.

Any suggestions for an elegant name change, starting with Canadras? Canadras' Lair is not smooth, and we've got Gondring's Lair already.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
tyhjaarpa
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Thorsten the Traveller wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:13 am We're not against making changes to the ICE cards per se. We've changed the artwork and the special of the site. But if you change the site's name, you also invalidate that map insert, basically.

Any suggestions for an elegant name change, starting with Canadras? Canadras' Lair is not smooth, and we've got Gondring's Lair already.
Would it make any sense to use Lossidilrin translation that is found from the MERP?
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Thorsten the Traveller
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You mean, using Kanatrass instead of the Sindarin Canadras ?

Since his lair was indeed a former Lossidilrin palace, that could be appropriate, though again it would not match with the ICE map.

Using it for the hazard (and roused faction) would fit less well, but it's an option. Whether it's different enough to solve the confusion some people seem to be experiencing I don't know.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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