Draft of CoE Digest #201 Q4 - CoE Issued Erratum Smoke Rings & Weigh all things - Open until September 24th

[Manuel]

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3) After the review period, the ROC will carefully consider everyone's contributions, revise the draft as appropriate, and then the Digest will be published and official.

Can Smoke Rings and Weight All Things to a Nicety move cards of the opposite alignment?

In 2018, a community vote was held in which it was decided that there would be an additional ruling added to Smoke Rings and Weigh All Things to a Nicety. You can find the voting here:

Ballot Item # 11 - Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety {clarifications} - Council of Elrond
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 144&t=3375

The proposal was intended to prohibit a resource of the opposite alignment from being targeted when playing Fallen-wizard, so the following text was ratified for both cards:

May not be used to bring an opposite alignment resource card into your play deck. An opposite alignment character card is permitted.

However, this committee has identified several problems with this erratum:

1. There is an existing rule in the MEWH rulebook that already says:

A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

Assuming that Smoke Rings and Weigh All Things to a Nicety target the resource or character that they are moving (which this committee contends would be the case, per the rules for targeting), this citation from MEWH would cover the alignment issue without any additional ruling being needed.

2. This erratum unintentionally allows a Fallen-wizard player to use Smoke Rings to bring an Orc/Troll character from the sideboard or discard pile. However, from the MEWH rules:

A hero resource may not target an Orc or Troll character (e.g. Orc and Troll characters may not use Block, Escape, etc.).

3. Finally, this erratum doesn’t specify whether it applies only when playing Fallen-wizard, when that was the proposal’s intention (e.g. Minion players may use Weigh all Things to bring Hero items from the sideboard).

Thus, this committee has decided to remove this committee ruling, as it is not necessary and actually problematic per the above. In addition, CRF clarification will be added that these cards do, in fact, target the cards that they move.

[Konrad Klar]

I disagree both with Ballot Item # 11 - Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety {clarifications} and with upcoming ruling.

Cards not in play are not affected. Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety say that some quantity of cards of some type may be taken from discard pile, sideboard to hand.

It is not decided at declaration which card will be taken on hand, so there is no targeting at any point.

[vailimo]

I disagree both with Ballot Item # 11 - Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety {clarifications} and with upcoming ruling.

Cards not in play are not affected. Smoke Rings & Weigh All Things to a Nicety say that some quantity of cards of some type may be taken from discard pile, sideboard to hand.

It is not decided at declaration which card will be taken on hand, so there is no targeting at any point.

Disagree

From melee rules glossary , target definiton
"Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the “target” of the action. Some possible targets are: characters, corruption checks, strike dice rolls, items, sites, and companies. A card that states it is playable on or with a certain entity targets an entity. Cards which affect an entire class of other cards do not target (e.g., Wake of War).

From CRF Rules by Term Target

"A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Entities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type. Note that «the foo» counts as specifying one «foo.»"

Smoke rings text:
Bring one (number) resource or character(type)

Weight all things to a Nicety
Bring one (number) resource or character(type)

The action "Bring from your sideboard to your play deck" is done through those cards, and with those cards that are specified by number and type and you need to choose them for the action to be done. They action don't affect an entire class of cards, but a specific number of those, and the only way to do that is through target them.

Only exception on this cards is that they specifically requires to choose entities that are not in play, so the requirement of the targets being in play at declaration is not required.

[Theo]

I would be happy for CoE to remove most of its rulings. I have some additional points to make on this one

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One historical reason to doubt that Smoke Rings and Weigh All Things to a Nicety target a card:

Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved. An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.

Obviously, the card chosen to be manipulated was chosen when it was not in play. Two possibilities for resolving this dilemma are either that the chosen card is not strictly a target, or that effects that give an explicit location outside of play are exempt from Annotation 8. I'm fine with the later.

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Regarding 2:

There is nothing in the existing CoE ruling that mentions overcoming the additional MEWH restriction specific to Orcs and Trolls.

However, there would be no way for an opponent to verify whether a character manipulated by the cards in question is an Orc or Troll, as nothing beyond the fact that it is a character needs to be revealed by CoL rules.

One possibility to consider is that perhaps manipulations of Orcs & Trolls out of play were not meant to be restricted by the MEWH rules. I note that all of the other MEWH Special Orc & Troll rules concern Orcs or Troll in play (or being played). But we must work with what is written.

Regardless, the CoL rules on revealing manipulated cards are inadequate.

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Regarding 3:

If these cards target, Minion players in principle cannot use Weigh All Things to a Nicety to bring Hero items from the sideboard.

Hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources.

However, there would be no way for an opponent to verify whether a resource manipulated by the cards in question is an item, as nothing beyond the fact that it is a resource needs to be revealed by CoL rules. Beasts of the Wood and Wild Hounds muck up the notion that any hero resource in a minion deck must have been an item.

I think this is another oversight of the CoL rules on revealing manipulated cards.

[Bandobras Took]

The White Hand rules use the phrase "target/affect" for good reason. A given action may not target, but still affect a card.

It is by rule impossible to target cards in the discard pile/play deck. (See annotation 8 in the previous post.)

Smoke/Weigh affect such cards. Rules pertaining to targets do not apply in such cases.

[Manuel]

Thanks everyone for your contributions.

The ROC will study them carefully and come up with a final digest soon.