Draft of CoE Digest #201 Q3 - Hazards in CvCC - Open until September 24th

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Manuel
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In order to contribute to this thread please follow these rules:

1) The thread will be open until September 24th.
2) There will be a maximum of one reply per forum user, and that reply cannot be edited. We want to actively avoid starting "flame wars", so please speak your peace, let others speak their peace, and that's it.
3) After the review period, the ROC will carefully consider everyone's contributions, revise the draft as appropriate, and then the Digest will be published and official.
Do hazards have any effect on company vs. company combat?

We’ve been discussing this new CRF entry that didn’t make it into CRF 15:
”@ Rules Erratum: Hazards effects in play that affect attacks have no effect on company vs. company combat.”
In the original digest, Van Norton only talks about hazards that directly affect attacks, not hazards that affect attacks generally:
”ICE RULES DIGEST #563

22-03-1999 NetRep: Van Norton Source

QUERY 4

From: _Spen...@aol.com_
Subject: Re: Rules Digest 562

Van, I just wanted to make sure you haven’t forgotten my question about what happens to hazards during CVCC. (Rulebook says hazards have no effect on CVCC combat.) 3 Digests ago you said you would answer it in the next digest. I still haven’t heard an answer.

No, delayed but not forgotten. Ichabod and I have been discussing changing the rule to make it more clear. I had one wording, he another. Ultimately, I spent an evening going through every hazard in the game to see how they impacted each wording of the new rule.

To make a long story short [too late] here is the new ruling for Company vs. Company combat:

Hazard effects in play that affect attacks have no effect on CVCC.

This is an errata and will be posted as a Rulings Monday on 3/22/99. The new rule will take effect 4/5/99.

Commentary:

This means that if a hazard effect directly affects an attack, it has no effect on Company vs. Company combat. So, if the hazard says, “All orc attacks have +1 prowess.” it would have no effect. On the other hand, if the hazard says, “All orcs have +1 prowess,” it will have normal effect.

Remember to that no hazards can be played during the site phase and no company vs. company combat will trigger an on-guard card. So the only hazards that would have any effect are hazard effects already in play.

The hazard Night is an excellent example for the new rule. The card text reads:

The prowess of each non-ranger Dúnadan is modified by -1. Additionally, if Doors of Night is in play, the prowesses of all attacks are are modified by +1 and the prowess of each Man and Dúnadan is modified by -1. Cannot be duplicated.

During company vs. company combat, with Doors of Night in play, non-ranger Dúnadan have a -1 prowess and additionally all Man and Dúnadan characters have an additional -1 prowess. Since the plus to prowess directly affects attacks, it has no effect on CvCC.”
The word “directly” provides an important distinction here; leaving the CRF as it is currently written doesn’t follow the actual intention of the ICE NetRep's ruling, and removes more hazard effects from CvCC than was originally intended.

Thus, we are updating this CRF entry. The correct text should be:

”Hazard effects in play that directly affect attacks have no effect on company vs. company combat.”
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Theo
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I have a strong conviction in a different conclusion.
Manuel wrote: Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:08 pm Leaving the CRF as it is currently written doesn’t follow the actual intention of the ICE NetRep's ruling, and removes more hazard effects from CvCC than was originally intended.
I see no evidence of intention not being followed. "Hazard effects that directly affect an attack" is a subset "hazard effects that affect attacks." The ruling without the "directly" still achieves the example restriction on the "directly" cases discussed. Where is there evidence that the intent was to only be the "directly" cases, as this proposal claims?

Is this, perhaps, based on misunderstanding the word "means?"

Instead, I think we have every reason to believe that the wording of the actual ruling given in this Digest and the CRF is exactly the wording intended, which after all was described as the result of a very thorough discussion and investigation.

Also, what I find... suspenseful is why this proposal does not describe even one implication of the proposed change on actual cards. Surely the proposers must have had something in mind to bother here. I wonder whether there is some additional misunderstanding about hazard effects.
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Manuel
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Thanks everyone for your contributions.

The ROC will study them carefully and come up with a final digest soon.
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Manuel
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We've been studying this case in more depth and decided that there's no real reason why we should rule out any change to the CRF entry about Hazards affecting CvCC. So far there's nothing broken that we need to fix. If anyone discovers any hazard that is not affecting CvCC because we didn't make this distinction of "affect" and "directly affect" , please email us.

We'll just skip Q3 in the final digest.
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