"Well, I'm back."

[domse]

It wouldn't be painful if it was actually possible to post at meccg.net. I tried to register and contacted the administrators repeatedly, but my account still hasn't been activated, so far.

Experiencing the same thing fpr 2 and a half years now. I gave it up and concentrate on this forum.

[Taurelin]

Just for the record, my account has finally been activated.

[Taurelin]

I've been watching (and also playing) a small number of matches on GCCG recently, and I'm quite confused by many observations that I made. Maybe you can help me understand what is going on here...

a) People tend to play pointless on-guard cards all the time, sometimes 3 per turn if there are multible companies. I understand that the purpose is to cycle through the deck faster and to get rid of cards that can't be used at that time. Still I think this is quite annoying. However, if I don't do the same, my opponent exhausts his deck while I still have 10 or 15 cards left in the deck (even with Alatar's draw-reduction). I also wonder which cards are so totally useless that you just cycle them away. Even if I don't need my Risky Blow now, I sure am happy if I saved it for the right moment. Or am I totally wrong?

b) People tend to play Longbottom Leaf (and sometimes Smoke Rings, too) excessively. Sure, the card is useful if you want to see some cards later in the game (like The White Tree or Return of the King). But then I see only random Factions, Allies etc. that show up. Another move I witnessed was 1st turn Wizard, 5 cards from SB to discard pile, then shuffling everything back with Favour of the Valar. Everything in the same turn. My question is: Why? Why not include the relevant cards in the deck from the beginning? Doesn't using Longbottom Leaf actually increase your deck size again, which is a contradiction to a) ?

c) People tend to not travel around. People tend to not play hazard creatures. Sometimes a game looks like a total standstill. Player A has his company sitting around ("squatting", if I understand the term correctly) at Ettenmoors (Ettenmoors of all places! A site my wife and I never visit because there's nothing to do there, only minor items...) gathering allies and 1MP factions, while player B juggles around with Daelomin at Home, Mouth of Sauron and An Unexpected Outpost, but nothing actually happens, really. Is this normal playstyle? As far as I remember the game used to be full of more action.


I'm sorry if all these questions sound very noobish to you. In fact they are, but I really would like to get behind all this. Were those people all testing their high-end tournament decks, or are those procedures part of "casual" play as well?

I remember, when my wife and I played, the game was much more like telling a story: "Our company started from Rivendell. We went to Moria and were attacked by wolves in the wilderness, which we defeated easily. In Moria Aragorn was unlucky and got wounded, but we found the Book of Marzabul and decided to take it to the Iron-Hill Dwarf-Hold. But first our path had to lead to Lorien, where we would find rest and healing..."

Where is all that spirit (and fun) gone?

[Vastor Peredhil]

Hi Uli, hi the rest,

well obviously it is my time to speak up, since it was some of my last game you where watching:

a)

Or am I totally wrong?

Well not completely wrong, but non DC play has gone down the drain indeed, creature hazards force you to keep some 2-3 cards in hand to really hinder your opponent, while Rivers, Lost in FD, Siege & Snowstorms can hinder more almost every turn
So most guys play their 12 creatures on guard to get rid of them and speed through their deack rather,

b)

People tend to play Longbottom Leaf (and sometimes Smoke Rings, too) excessively.

Sadly they do ;(
Since most people build over-proof (lot of cancel & Marvels) so their points most come from the SB, it is crappy but people seem to prefer it.
I rather play huge & risky decks, so yes I use these 2 cards as well in case something really goes wrong

c)

People tend to not travel around. People tend to not play hazard creatures. Sometimes a game looks like a total standstill. Player A has his company sitting around ... while player B juggles around with Daelomin at Home, Mouth of Sauron and An Unexpected Outpost, but nothing actually happens, really. Is this normal playstyle? As far as I remember the game used to be full of more action.

Well actually the squatting player normally juggles these hazard as well

but sadly again, that is what we came down to, unless of course you see DC games (so better the SVN version here: http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... f=20&t=903)

So people please do try again some really tricky or heroic decks, since that is what the book was all about not squatting at Ettenmoors or Himring or crappier sites even

I'm sorry if all these questions sound very noobish to you. In fact they are, but I really would like to get behind all this. Were those people all testing their high-end tournament decks, or are those procedures part of "casual" play as well?

No, in general people tend to play competivie decks unless you play b_took, Adanedhel or me (sry Ben couldn't resist), unless you ask for a casual game.
Sadly I some guys tweak their same old decks till perfecting and then still go on playing them for ages . . .
Unless I am testing DCCDs I never try to play the same deck more than 3-4 times (once I get it to work, or as others would say to less than 80 cards )
But in general I see the same decks exspecially the same hazards all the time, come on there is so much to do,
JUST DO IT

honestly if a longtime player returning realizes you people are boring after a week, maybe you ought to proof him wrong

yours Nicolai aka Vastor

[thorondor]

good observations, as are your conclusions.
but i would say that you indeed have watched some high-end tourney decks. i am surprised that you have watched an ettenmoors squatter in an obvious casual game. a deck like this is not much fun, agreed!
but i wouldnt be as pessimistic about normal games as nico. there are still many that play interesting decks also at tournaments (for example this year a ringdunker won the "big" general opponent at Lure). of course if you want to win at all means, its finally comes down to a few deck-archetypes.

tehre are many fun tourneys with scenarios. lots of players completely focus on those.
and while i like playing DC, one may also completely screw up the idea and make a boring no-fun deck in that environment (of course not nico, but i am sure he agrees

[Taurelin]

So most guys play their 12 creatures on guard to get rid of them and speed through their deack rather

Or play with Nazgul/Agents/Events, which are even faster because they can be played anytime, anywhere. I was quite disappointed by my deck when I used Aware of their Ways to find some nice prey for Alatar's The Hunt only to find out that the discard pile was full of things I could't even challenge. And I was even more disappointed when Alatar got killed (!) by an agent after I had become bored and discarded all Risky Blows...

Since most people build over-proof (lot of cancel & Marvels) so their points most come from the SB, it is crappy but people seem to prefer it.

That's why I'm asking. I wonder if my deckbuilding or playing style is wrong. My focus is on my strategy, normally. And if I plan to Muster a faction, that faction goes in the deck, not in the sideboard. I understand the SBs main function to have cards accessible that might be useful in some situations, but not always. So I put Marvels Told in the SB and fetch in when I need it, not the other way round.

Maybe that's why I always lose...

honestly if a longtime player returning realizes you people are boring after a week, maybe you ought to proof him wrong

Sorry, I didn't want to insult anybody. I just want to learn, and if you tell me "Yes, that's the way to play MECCG", I'll try to adapt. I just had the feeling that we used to play differently.

of course if you want to win at all means, its finally comes down to a few deck-archetypes.

Well, I know this situation from Magic - the Gathering. There are also Decks-to-Beat at tournaments, which I also attend btw, and here the individuality is just in minor tweaks to established lists or metagame-adaptions. But there's also casual play where creativity is allowed, depending on your playgroup of course.

As far as MECCG is concerned, I'm trying to improve my deck(s) or even copy and use something I've seen somewhere. But to be honest, the resource/hazard overview at meccg.net in theory looks much more interesting and varied than what I have seen at GCCCG in practice, so far.

[marcos]

a) People tend to play pointless on-guard cards all the time, sometimes 3 per turn if there are multible companies. I understand that the purpose is to cycle through the deck faster and to get rid of cards that can't be used at that time. Still I think this is quite annoying. However, if I don't do the same, my opponent exhausts his deck while I still have 10 or 15 cards left in the deck (even with Alatar's draw-reduction). I also wonder which cards are so totally useless that you just cycle them away. Even if I don't need my Risky Blow now, I sure am happy if I saved it for the right moment. Or am I totally wrong?

Most of the time they are pointless, but the truth is that they only help you go faster through your deck if you have less than 8 cards in hand. Anyways i dont see why this can be annoying, it is a part of the game

b) People tend to play Longbottom Leaf (and sometimes Smoke Rings, too) excessively. Sure, the card is useful if you want to see some cards later in the game (like The White Tree or Return of the King). But then I see only random Factions, Allies etc. that show up. Another move I witnessed was 1st turn Wizard, 5 cards from SB to discard pile, then shuffling everything back with Favour of the Valar. Everything in the same turn. My question is: Why? Why not include the relevant cards in the deck from the beginning? Doesn't using Longbottom Leaf actually increase your deck size again, which is a contradiction to a) ?

Back in time when i didnt play online i thought same as you, why bring something into deck if i can put it straight? The fact is that there are cards that are needed in the late game, so you dont want them to be stucked in your hand. Some decks need heavy sideboarding and that is why they abuse those 2 cards.

c) People tend to not travel around. People tend to not play hazard creatures. Sometimes a game looks like a total standstill. Player A has his company sitting around ("squatting", if I understand the term correctly) at Ettenmoors (Ettenmoors of all places! A site my wife and I never visit because there's nothing to do there, only minor items...) gathering allies and 1MP factions, while player B juggles around with Daelomin at Home, Mouth of Sauron and An Unexpected Outpost, but nothing actually happens, really. Is this normal playstyle? As far as I remember the game used to be full of more action.

I think that most hero decks do travel around, its the rest of the allignements that haves a tricky playstyle. I disagree about wasting the creatures, since there are some VERY useful ones that you don't want to discard (corsairs of umbar, cave worm, assassin, so to say), and if opponent is juggling with mouth and outpost, it is obvious that he is cooking something for you and something WILL happen eventually, if you are prepared or not against it, that is a separate thing. Sometimes that juggling will break you apart and win the game with a nice combo pulled off from sideboard, it just needs time to be set up.

I think that Wolfgang has spoken wisely, there are lots of people that plays fun decks, there is no need to be pessimistic about the normal games, if you are not used to that metagame its better if you tell your casual-opponent that you prefer playing a friendly game rather than a high competitive ultra cheezy one.
I also like playing DC a lot, but since it adds too many new rules i definitely think that it is not something for a new (or an old rusty) player and as Wolfgang pointed out, Ubber-cheeze can come from those new sets and i proved it by winning the 2 online DCGO tourneys

[marcos]

That's why I'm asking. I wonder if my deckbuilding or playing style is wrong. My focus is on my strategy, normally. And if I plan to Muster a faction, that faction goes in the deck, not in the sideboard. I understand the SBs main function to have cards accessible that might be useful in some situations, but not always. So I put Marvels Told in the SB and fetch in when I need it, not the other way round.

its not completely wrong, most of the times you will add those factions that you can reach on your first 2 turns, you dont want southrons or iron hill dwarves straight in deck, because if you draw them early they will be stucked in your hand creating handclog. That is why you bring them late in the game... Does it sound logical?

hope you get my points
best regards!

[Taurelin]

Most of the time they are pointless, but the truth is that they only help you go faster through your deck if you have less than 8 cards in hand. Anyways i dont see why this can be annoying, it is a part of the game

Well, to me placing a card on-guard means that there might be something unexpected lurking if I choose to enter the site, like Incite Denizens, Greed or an additional Cave-Drake. So if my opponent plays a card on-guard I might think twice before I actually enter the site.

Of course, it needn't be a hazard, necessarily. My opponent might be bluffing .

What I've seen, however, is rather that he is bluffing 100% of the cases and never plays anything nasty. So it is just ... annoying, precisely.

All in all, it seems to be nothing but a loophole in the rules to draw additional cards, something that can't have been intended when the rules were created, in particular if you have special abilities like Radagast's.

The fact is that there are cards that are needed in the late game, so you dont want them to be stucked in your hand.

its not completely wrong, most of the times you will add those factions that you can reach on your first 2 turns, you dont want southrons or iron hill dwarves straight in deck, because if you draw them early they will be stucked in your hand creating handclog. That is why you bring them late in the game... Does it sound logical?

Sure. Like the examples I already mentioned above.

if opponent is juggling with mouth and outpost, it is obvious that he is cooking something for you and something WILL happen eventually, if you are prepared or not against it, that is a separate thing. Sometimes that juggling will break you apart and win the game with a nice combo pulled off from sideboard, it just needs time to be set up.

Of course. Hazard combos are something I do appreciate.

if you are not used to that metagame its better if you tell your casual-opponent that you prefer playing a friendly game rather than a high competitive ultra cheezy one.

I will.

[marcos]

Well, to me placing a card on-guard means that there might be something unexpected lurking if I choose to enter the site, like Incite Denizens, Greed or an additional Cave-Drake. So if my opponent plays a card on-guard I might think twice before I actually enter the site.

Of course, it needn't be a hazard, necessarily. My opponent might be bluffing .

What I've seen, however, is rather that he is bluffing 100% of the cases and never plays anything nasty. So it is just ... annoying, precisely.

hehe then you will get a surprise when the bluffing isn't actually a bluff

All in all, it seems to be nothing but a loophole in the rules to draw additional cards, something that can't have been intended when the rules were created, in particular if you have special abilities like Radagast's.

That, I agree, its nothing but a loophole that became a part of the game-style

[Bandobras Took]

Maybe that's why I always lose...

I always lose because my hazard play is crappy and because I refuse to use cards I consider to be broken. I personally find no shame in this, though.

Sorry, I didn't want to insult anybody. I just want to learn, and if you tell me "Yes, that's the way to play MECCG", I'll try to adapt. I just had the feeling that we used to play differently.

Yes, when the game first came out, here was the typical turn:

Go to a Shadow Hold. Grab a Greater Item. Grab another Greater Item with Thorough Search. Grab 3 more Marshalling Points with rescue prisoners.

And here was the typical hazard portion:

Mouth Of Sauron. Ren the Unclean. Uvatha the Horseman. 22 Corruption Cards.

Boring play has always been a possibility in the game. It's also a necessary possibility in the game. If you know your opponent is going to be moving and doing risky things, the game becomes boring anyway -- it's just a different set of cards that shows up in the decks of people who always stick the same cards in their deck.

Since most people build over-proof (lot of cancel & Marvels) so their points most come from the SB, it is crappy but people seem to prefer it.
I rather play huge & risky decks, so yes I use these 2 cards as well in case something really goes wrong.

Or just play Fallen Saruman. You starting party gets attacked by Corsairs, Cave Worms, Rain Drakes, Cave Drakes, and just about everything short of Nazgul moving to Isengard on the first turn. It's often the case that no matter how full of cancelers I stuff my decks, my party gets annihilated on the first turn anyway. It may not be boring, but whether it's fun is another question entirely.

People tend to not travel around. People tend to not play hazard creatures. Sometimes a game looks like a total standstill. Player A has his company sitting around ... while player B juggles around with Daelomin at Home, Mouth of Sauron and An Unexpected Outpost, but nothing actually happens, really. Is this normal playstyle? As far as I remember the game used to be full of more action.

They instituted a 12 creature minimum because otherwise everybody ran pure corruption. Unfortunately, that made arriving untapped and unwounded more difficult. Once they errataed River to say you need to keep three rangers untapped for the entire movement/hazard phase, moving became -- if you'll pardon the expression -- a pain in the ass. People stopped moving all the time because it isn't fun to waste your turn, and River, Beorning Skin-Changers, Snowstorm, not to mention more than a few creatures, all stand a chance of making you do just that. Incidentally, Snowstorm didn't use to make you waste your turn, but they had to do something to stop people that would declare movement to multiple sites to get card draw and bounce back to the same site. Remove the effects that force people to do nothing during the site phase (bouncing back to site of origin, River/Lost In Free Domains, etc.) and you'll find more people willing to move because they'll actually believe they can accomplish something thereby.

but sadly again, that is what we came down to, unless of course you see DC games

What, the one where a minion company moving through a single wilderness faces 3 strikes at 14 from a Huorn? That certainly doesn't encourage me to move.

So people please do try again some really tricky or heroic decks, since that is what the book was all about not squatting at Ettenmoors or Himring or crappier sites even

Actually, that's precisely what Fallen Saruman did. I didn't notice Elrond or Galadriel moving around too much, either. The only moving company was a cheezy Hobbit company loaded up on cancelers and Halfling Strength and running Return of the King.

Sadly I some guys tweak their same old decks till perfecting and then still go on playing them for ages . . .

Yes, it's quite astonishing how people like to feel like they've done something in their turn, gameplay-wise. I remember a game a while ago (read: a couple of years) against Sauron where he was moving around and trying things. I dismantled him on the strength of his ability to roll a 2 when he needed a three.

He was a better player.
His was the better deck.
His was the cooler deck.
He still lost.

There are times where you get tired of it. If it comes down to it, either your opponent or you are going to be upset by your resource portion, and your resource portion probably shouldn't upset you.

As a side note, the Dream Card project sometimes confuses differently-named cards with actual variety and non-boring play.

Sorry for this little rant.

[Bandobras Took]

All on-guard cards are returned to owner's hands. At the end of any turn, all wounded and tapped agents are returned to their owner's hands.

If it really upsets you when people spam on-guard cards, just force them to be put back in his hand as soon as he plays them.

[zirilan]

On one hand you can built a deck with the aim to have fun playing it (Theme-Decks).
On the other hand you can solve an optimimisation task about the mathematical model of MECCG game mechanism (P9-Decks).

You'll see both types of decks in almost every CCG. As long as winning is more important than having fun, P9-Decks are favored.

For example: Solving the Yu-Gi-Oh! optimimisation task (building a deck that gives you the right 5 starting card out of 40 deck cards to pull off your kill combo) results in a 80% chance (4 out of 5 games) winning the 1st turn. Of course there are many ways to win with the 1st turn but the more cards are needed for the winning combo the less are the chances to actually draw them in your opening hand. None of those cards are even mentioned in the Yu-Gi-Oh! serial. Tournament players will always seek for a way to increase the percentage of winning in the 1st turn until someone finds a deck that preforms that with 100%.

In MECCG you will need Carambor to win in the 1st turn. But due to the fact, that your opponent can play hazard cards during your turn and you have to roll dices for some stuff (in Yu-Gi-Oh! your opponent cannot play cards during your 1st turn), it is even more difficult to solve that optimimisation task for MECCG.

As you mention MtG, the king of all 1st turn kill CCGs, it even tops all other CCGs cause you can win the game in turn zero (yes, you win the game befor you even have got your 1st turn).

So the things you observed are not the problems of MECCG but the problems with power-gamers and P9-Decks.

You should play scenario games like Hamburg Scenario, Cool Play, or Dream Card Challenge Decks to have some fun and a realistic middle earth atmosphere.

[marcos]

those are some wise words. Everyone playing this should know that it is CCG, and should be treated as such. If you want some "Middle-earth feeling" its better to play a scenario or a Roll Playing Game...

[Taurelin]

Yes, when the game first came out, here was the typical turn:

Go to a Shadow Hold. Grab a Greater Item. Grab another Greater Item with Thorough Search. Grab 3 more Marshalling Points with rescue prisoners.

Yep. Especially with lots of Dwarves and Radagast, right?

So people please do try again some really tricky or heroic decks, since that is what the book was all about not squatting at Ettenmoors or Himring or crappier sites even

Actually, that's precisely what Fallen Saruman did. I didn't notice Elrond or Galadriel moving around too much, either. The only moving company was a cheezy Hobbit company loaded up on cancelers and Halfling Strength and running Return of the King.

Well, one of the marvellous things about MECCG is that it is possible to tell a totally different story with the same raw material.

On one hand you can built a deck with the aim to have fun playing it (Theme-Decks).
On the other hand you can solve an optimimisation task about the mathematical model of MECCG game mechanism (P9-Decks).

You'll see both types of decks in almost every CCG. As long as winning is more important than having fun, P9-Decks are favored.

Well, deckbuilding is one thing. Playing-style (like on-guard "spamming") applies to both, right?

As you mention MtG, the king of all 1st turn kill CCGs, it even tops all other CCGs cause you can win the game in turn zero (yes, you win the game befor you even have got your 1st turn).

So the things you observed are not the problems of MECCG but the problems with power-gamers and P9-Decks.

Ah, the infamous Hulk-Flash. Dominated one Grand Prix, then got banned. Good.

On the other hand, using on-guard cards for additional carddraw is something that is simply not possible in MtG, this is something that is specific for the MECCG mechanics.

An imaginary scenario: Some people discover a loophole in the MtG rules that allow players to use a certain bunch of cards in combination with a certain game mechanic to create an effect that is
- not originally intended
- broken (or at least creating a significant advantage for those who use it)
- finally used by everybody
The result will be a banning of the relevant cards, updated card errata, or even a change of the rules if necessary.

Now, here MECCG has the clear disadvantage that it is no longer officially supported, and therefore there will be no official remedies for such problems.

So again, I agree that powergaming and optimizing are present everywhere. But some of my observations seem to apply only to MECCG.

You should play scenario games like Hamburg Scenario, Cool Play, or Dream Card Challenge Decks to have some fun and a realistic middle earth atmosphere.

I think this "cool play" is something that I'm going to dig into. Because there are not only those stylish scenarios and actions, you also have adequate additional rules, like that you have to use creatures if you can.

those are some wise words. Everyone playing this should know that it is CCG, and should be treated as such. If you want some "Middle-earth feeling" its better to play a scenario or a Roll Playing Game...

Nice pun.

Still, even a Roadblock vs. Ruins-Sqatting match of MECCG has 1.000x more flavour than MtG.

"At the beginning of my upkeep step, the triggered ability of my Smokestack goes on the stack. In response, I sacrifice my Court Homunculus to put a +1/+1 counter onto my Arcbound Ravager, and I cast Fling targetting you for lethal damage. Pass priority..."