Cards affecting the hazard limit

[Jambo]

HAZARD LIMIT (CLARIFICATION)
The base hazard limit is determined (i.e., set) simultaneously at the moment a company reveals its new site or otherwise announces it is beginning its movement/hazard phase. Any cards which modify a company's hazard limit played prior to this point are then immediately applied to the company's base hazard limit in the order chosen by the player controlling the company. With such modifications established, any cards played after this point are interpreted in the order they are resolved. Any effects which modify the hazard limit against a company during its site phase are ignored. Any reduction in the hazard limit during a movement/hazard phase does not affect cards already announced and played.

Now, there are several hazards that can affect the hazard limit, some of which are listed below:

Eyes of the Shadow
Hazard Permanent-event
Environment. May only be played if Gates of Morning is not in play. The hazard limit is increased by two for each moving company with a size of less than four that also contains a Wizard or a non-ranger character with a mind of 6 or more. Cannot be duplicated. Discard when any play deck is exhausted.

Shadow of Mordor
Hazard Permanent-event
Environment. The hazard limit for each company is increased by one for every card over one drawn by that company during its movement/hazard phase.
Additionally, if Doors of Night is in play, during each company's movement/hazard phase, the hazard player may draw one additional card for every card in excess of one drawn by his opponent. Cannot be duplicated.

Gandalf the White Rider
13/9 Creature or Permanent-event
Playable: Free-domain Free-hold
Unique. Maia. Manifestation of Gandalf. Two strikes. Detainment and -3 prowess against hero companies. Discard this card if Gandalf comes into play. As a creature, may also be played keyed to Arthedain, The Shire, Rhudaur, Lindon, Wold & Foothills, or Anfalas; or at sites in these regions. As a permanent-event, the hazard limit against all overt minion companies is increased by one. Discard when any play deck is exhausted.

Can each of these cards immediately affect the hazard limit of the current company's m/h phase?

[Konrad Klar]

I don't think so.
In my opinion HAZARD LIMIT (CLARIFICATION) says only about cards played on company that decalres its movement.
Effects of that three cards are actions activated by passive condition.

[Jambo]

Why?

"With such modifications established, any cards played after this point are interpreted in the order they are resolved."

If cards can reduce the hazard limit during a movement/hazard phase, then surely cards can increase it too, whether they're actions activated by passive conditions or not...

[Konrad Klar]

Why?

Because text of HAZARD LIMIT (CLARIFICATION) is vague and imprecise. For example, someone can read "Any reduction in the hazard limit during a movement/hazard phase does not affect cards already announced and played." in such way that fizzling of hazard by reducing HL in response is not possible. Hazard has been "announced and played" even if not resolved so no va, Deeper Shadow or Many Turns and Doublings cannot affect it.

So I'm asking what exactly does it mean and for what this rule was established?

There are some situations where such regulation is actually required. For example if Forod and Fair Travels In Wilderness way played on company.
Now consider following situation:
During M/H phase Gandalf the White Rider as PE is played. Company is overt, so action from GtWR is triggered. In response to its declaration character in the company plays Voices of Maliced or Counterfeit and the action is canceled.
Is this example OK in your opinion?
If so, why cards like Gandalf the White Rider should be treated dually? At the start of M/H phase like Forod, or Fair Travels In Wilderness, after that according to the standard Passive Conditions rules?
At the start of M/H phase without chance of response, later with such chance.
Are Snowstorm or Scorba Ahunt treated differently at the beging of M/H phase and differently if played in middle of M/H phase?

[Jambo]

But that's the way that MTaD and DS are currently played. They fizzle cards already announced and played but not yet resolved.

If they can reduce HL, then surely cards like those above can increase it for the company's m/h phase in which they're first played? How else would tapping Power Built by Waiting work?

[Bandobras Took]

Cards are not in play until the Card Play action has resolved in a chain of effects.

[Konrad Klar]

I'm not saying that such cards have not effect. I'm only saying that that card does not work immediately. That works like all other cards that creates action in result of passive condition. Not immediately, but in coe.
Gandalf The White Raider resolves. If company is overt then in next coe the action "+1 to HL" is declared. If it will not be canceled, then HL for company will be increased by one.
I don't see where is a moot point (if any).

[Jambo]

That's fine then. The question wasn't so much about whether these cards created passive conditions or not, but more whether the cards would have an effect on the HL of the current company's m/h phase on the turn they're played.

For Shadow of Mordor in particular, the HL is affected by the number of cards drawn and this event would have already happened for the current company before Shadow of Mordor could have been played.

[Konrad Klar]

For Shadow of Mordor in particular, the HL is affected by the number of cards drawn and this event would have already happened for the current company before Shadow of Mordor could have been played.

If you are saying about act of drawing card, then yes. This event would have already happened for the current company before Shadow of Mordor could have been played.
Situation is different if as passive condition will be considered number of drawed card over one. It can be chcecked at any time during M/H phase.
Also this number may be changed during M/H by Dark Tryst.

[Jambo]

So, just to make this clear.

Moving company reveals site and draws cards. Hazard player plays SoM and it resolves. No effect on HL for his company this turn since cards were drawn before SoM was in play? Or, can SoM increase HL retrospectively?

[Konrad Klar]

Shadow of Mordor resolves and checks for number card drawn over one during current M/H phase. It does not matter whether cards have been drawn before or after resolution of Shadow of Mordor.

[Konrad Klar]

Eeeh...

There are some issues with enviroment cards.
I've raised this issues here:
http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=587

[Jambo]

Have you checked any of the CoE digests or ICE digests to see if there's anything on SoM? I seem to recall rulings in past in favour of SoM being able to retrospectively modify the HL in the same m/h phase it's played, but then I also seem to recall rulings which said it wasn't possible... :/

[Konrad Klar]

Yes. I've found:

17. Does Shadow of Mordor effect the hazard limit of the company that you just played on? (Since they drew the cards beforehand, not knowing what would befall them from drawing so many cards)

*** No.

I think that it is wrong.
Effect of Shadow of Mordor is not comparable to:

Corruption. Dark Enchantment. Playable on a non-Wizard character wounded by an Undead attack this turn.; does not count against the hazard limit. Target character receives 2 corruption points and makes a corruption check each time a player discards a card from his hand during his turn. His direct influence is zero while bearing this card. Cannot be duplicated on a given character. During the organization phase, a sage in target character's company (other than character) may tap to attempt to remove this card. Make a roll (or draw a #): if the result is greater than 6, discard this card.

or

Corruption. Playable on a Wizard or a Fallen-wizard. He receives 1 corruption point (CP). If he is a Fallen-wizard, he receives 2 stage points and the CPs received are instead: 4 CPs if his stage points (SPs) exceed 18, 3 CPs if his SPs exceed 11, 2 CPs if his SPs exceed 5, 1 CP if his SPs exceed 0 (use the first that applies). The target makes a corruption check whenever his controlling player plays a stage card. Cannot be duplicated on a given character. During his organization phase, target may tap to attempt to remove this card. Make a roll-if this result is greater than 6, discard this card.

Underlines mine.

Underlined texts are quite different from "The hazard limit for each company is increased by one for every card over one drawn by that company during its movement/hazard phase." (Shadow of Mordor).
First checks for single operation made on card (discarding, playing a card). Second checks for overall number of cards over one that have been drawn during M/H phase.
So mechanics of Inner Rot and Pale Dream-maker is different from mechanics of Shadow of Mordor.

[Wacho]

This is from COE 11

CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 11
1. Take Shadow of Morder: Environment.The hazard limit for each company is increased by one for every card over one drawn by that company during its movement/hazard phase. Additionally, if Doors of Night is in play, during each company's movement/hazard phase, the hazard player may draw one additional card for every card in excess of one drawn by his opponent. Cannot be duplicated.
Q: SoM's out; its effect has been applied. What if it's Twilighted, Mouthed, and re-played? Will it: (a) lose its effect as soon as it leaves play, and resume its effect when it returns?
(b) not lose its effect when it leaves play, and have a cumulative effect when it returns?
(c) not lose its effect when it leaves play, and not have a cumulative effect when it returns?
• *** (b) is correct. The player drawing more than one card is the condition and the increase in hazard limit as a result is the action. The action has already been applied and will not go away.
• When SOM comes back into play, the effects are reapplied. This is a parallel ruling to the Gandalf the White Rider ruling that allows its effect to be applied immediately.