Council of Elrond

Lidless Eye, Standard Rules, Characters & Companies, Ringwraith Followers wrote:A Ringwraith follower must always be under the control of your Ringwraith and may move to non-Darkhaven sites with your Ringwraith. Your Ringwraith must use 1 point of direct influence to control each Ringwraith follower. Your Ringwraith followers may not be influenced away by your opponent.

Underline mine.

Does it mean that RW folowers cannot be taken prisoner?

CRF RW Followers wrote:When your revealed Ringwraith leaves play without being eliminated, you have until the end of your next organization phase to bring your Ringwraith back into play and use him to re-control any Ringwraith followers. Otherwise, all Ringwraith followers are discarded.

Situations can arise in the game which override the normal rules. I would say a Follower being taken prisoner is one of these instances.

Since RW Followers don't yield negative MPs, who cares if they're prisoners anyway?

What is abnormal in situation where RW follower is targeted to be taken prisoner while Ringwraith is not?
Or in situation where strike of the attack from Troll-Purse is successful against RW follower and failed against Ringwraith?

Assuming that RW follower could be taken prisoner, the rule quoted by you is not applicable in such case, because:

Dark Minions, Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification) wrote:Certain cards and effects require other cards be placed “off to the side” (for example, Sacrifice of Form from Middle-earth: The Wizards). Cards placed off to the side are placed on the playing surface off to the side of the normal area of play. Such cards are
kept with their host permanent- event that caused this effect. Any card placed off to the side absolutely cannot be targeted or otherwise affected by the game except by cards that specifically affect cards placed “off to the side.”

Underline mine.

You cant be serious?

sly southerner wrote:You cant be serious?

I don't understand your sense of humour.

Konrad Klar wrote:What is abnormal in situation where RW follower is targeted to be taken prisoner while Ringwraith is not?
Or in situation where strike of the attack from Troll-Purse is successful against RW follower and failed against Ringwraith?

Assuming that RW follower could be taken prisoner, the rule quoted by you is not applicable in such case, because:

Dark Minions, Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification) wrote:Certain cards and effects require other cards be placed “off to the side” (for example, Sacrifice of Form from Middle-earth: The Wizards). Cards placed off to the side are placed on the playing surface off to the side of the normal area of play. Such cards are
kept with their host permanent- event that caused this effect. Any card placed off to the side absolutely cannot be targeted or otherwise affected by the game except by cards that specifically affect cards placed “off to the side.”

I do not see the point. Once a RW follower has been taken prisoner, the rule which requires them to be controlled no longer applies (can't be affected by the game). Only your RW can free them from being a prisoner since you can't initiate an effect which would cause illegal company composition. If a RW follower is freed through Voices on the hazard host, I would assume you have until next organization phase to re-control the RW follower similar to rules for an avatar removed from play.

OK. I was not sure what mean "Situations can arise in the game which override the normal rules."

My point is that once a RW follower has been taken prisoner, the rule which requires them to be discarded (if for some reasons Ringwraih leaves play) cannot be applied.

I'm (still) not sure whether imprisoning of RW follower is possible at all. Imprisoning attack is only effect I know that would remove RW follower from the control of Ringwraith (beside removing of Ringwraith from play) and it is in conflict with "A Ringwraith follower must always be under the control of your Ringwraith". However rule quoted by you may indicate that forbidding of removing RW follower from control of Ringwraith is not absolute.

Question is whether such situation may also occur as result of hazard's effects (or enforced by something else) or whether actions that would cause it are canceled (similarly as actions that would cause violation of company composition restrictions).

IMO "A Ringwraith follower must always be under the control of your Ringwraith" is nothing more than another way to state "A RW follower can never be controlled by general influence". The rest is just a consequence: a RW follower can be taken prisoner, and once he gets rescued (or the host is voiced away) he must come back under your RW's direct influence within the next orga phase, otherwise he's discarded. While he's prisoner he uses no GI to be controlled (as well as any prisoner), then he can stay in that condition as long as he gets rescued/voiced.

just my 2 cents.

My view on this:
The "always under control" deals when you normally control a character.
This means that you cannot transfer a RW follower to GI so you can place
a Troll-follower(with Orders from Lugburz) under your RW so to place
another minion under the Troll-follower for a corruption check, due to the bonus
from Lugburz.

My view is that a RW "follower" can come into play during the site phase
if the host event has be satisfied or discarded.
Now, if the follower was rescued by a non-RW the RW can still come into play
and not violate company composition. How would that be? To have the rescuing minion
to be discarded after the rescue attack. That is send Orc Vetern by himself with Sable Shield
to face the site AA. Have him stay untapped and get a -3 modifier. Discard the shield.
Have him do the same for the rescue attack and hope he fails, and either is killed or discarded.
Now, your RW has to move to the rescue site to control the RW follower again or the RW follower is discarded
when the ORG phase ends.

Dark Minions, Taking Prisoners, Rescue and the Rescue-attack wrote:Rescue-attacks are not considered automatic-attacks. Following the rescue-attack, an
untapped character in the rescuing company can tap, and all characters taken prisoner
under the hazard host immediately join the company under general influence (which
must be legally reconciled during the player’s next organization phase)—the rescue
attempt is successful. The company’s site then taps (if untapped), and one minor item
may be played with an untapped member of the rescuing company.

Underline and bold mine.

Okay. That is one strike against me.
I am on no hard surface in my next logic.
How about loading the rescuing character with corruption
so when he taps, some passive effect forces him to make a corruption check?
He fails, but the Ringwraith still is rescued and has his own company?

On another thought, I say you can still rescue the RW even though
he 'joins' a company. My logic is that company composition is not "check" at that time.
Composition is "checked" during certain parts of the turn such as ORG phase, and beginning of site phase right?
The rules itself say that you have the next turn to handle illegal actions such as too much GI.
So what happens if Counterfeit is removed from an orc during the Move phase if in the same company as Shamas?

Sorry, but there are many of anti-traps against your traps.

How about loading the rescuing character with corruption
so when he taps, some passive effect forces him to make a corruption check?

Such things (actions caused by passive conditions) are declared in next chain of effects (next to that chain in which they was triggered).
Unless the action is discard; this happens immediately. But cc is no.
But if even something would discard character at moment when he taps, there would not be a company to join rescued characters.

My logic is that company composition is not "check" at that time.
Composition is "checked" during certain parts of the turn such as ORG phase, and beginning of site phase right?

Characters removed from control of DI outside organization phase and rescued characters do not consume GI, until next organization phase of player.
Company composition is checked always. Sometimes there are characters at the same site, which cannot be in the same company (outside haven).
But then they are in separate companies.

So what happens if Counterfeit is removed from an orc during the Move phase if in the same company as Shamas?

Then the company will become overt, if it was not overt already.

So what happens if Counterfeit is removed from an orc during the Move phase if in the same company as Shamas?

Then the company will become overt, if it was not overt already.

Unless after removing of Counterfeit Orc is still Half-Orc (is normally Half-Orc, or other Counterfeit is still on him; Counterfeit may be duplicted on character).
Then company will be still overt, or still covert, as before removing of Counterfeit (losing a spirit-magic using character, which was cause of discarding of Counterfeit may change picture, if that character was making its company overt).

Thanks Konrad. I now how Galdor feels after asking those questions at the council.

And what exactly makes you believe it is the One Ring?