Send back / Palantir of Amon Sul

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Alter Tuk
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Palantir of Amon Sul
If the bearer`s company is ever below 2 characters and the company moves, discard the Palantir. [...]
What happens if the bearer of the Palantir of Amon Sul is forced to go back to his site of origin by Seized by Terror? Is he considered to move? Must he discard the Palantir?

What I found is this but I`m still not sure.
CRF / Palantir of Amon Sul
Discard immediately if its company contains less than two characters while moving.
CRF / Returning to Site of Origin
- If a company returns to its site of origin, its site path immediately disappears, and its movement/hazard phase immediately ends.
- A company that gets sent back to its site of origin is not considered to have moved to that site this turn. [CoE]
M/H phase stops immediately, so he is not considered moving anymore. He is also not considered moving to the site of origin, so he may keep his precious?
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Konrad Klar
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Seized by Terror wrote:Playable on a non-Wizard character moving in a Shadow-land [s] or a Dark-domain [d]. Target character makes a roll (draws a #) and adds his mind. If that result is less than 12, that character splits off into a different company. This new company immediately returns to his original company's site of origin. Terror seized him. He shrank back, and for a moment he stood trembling in the hall.-LotRI
Here are two separate actions:
- forming of new (one character) company,
- returning to the site of origin.

If a card must be discarded du to a passive condition, the card is discarded immediately, not in the next chain of effect.
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Alter Tuk
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eh, that means yes or no? :?
I mean, ok, he forms a new company. But as long he is not considered moving he wouldnt have to discard. (Please explain again for n00bs! :wink: )

edit: I think I got it:
Character splits off -> alone and moving -> discard palantir immediately
after that he is send back
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Konrad Klar
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- A company that gets sent back to its site of origin is not considered to have moved to that site this turn. [CoE]
Underline mine.

So, for example, the company moving from the Bree to the Old Forest and returned to the site of origin is not considered as the company that had moved to the Bree this turn.
Alter Tuk wrote:[...]
edit: I think I got it:
Character splits off -> alone and moving -> discard palantir immediately
after that he is send back
Right. :)
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
domse
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As I was playing the deck that happened to have this massive problem, that lead to this rules question, I just propose everyone having the same problem: Get Sam, Promptings and the palantir on him!!!
Wacho
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I don't know Konrad. I don't see where you can say that the character is alone and moving. When he gets hit by Siezed by Terror the character splits and is immediately returned to site of origin. The CRF states that his site path immediately disappears and he immediately returns to site of origin. Furthermore he isn't considered to move to that site. So with all of those immediatelys I don't see any time where he can be considered alone and moving.
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Bandobras Took
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I think the key is that the character splits into a new company before all those "immediately" phrases kick in. I can see the card being read either way, though.
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Konrad Klar
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Wacho wrote:So with all of those immediatelys I don't see any time where he can be considered alone and moving.
For the same reasons:
If a card must be discarded du to a passive condition, the card is discarded immediately, not in the next chain of effect.
Even if returning to the site of origin takes place immediatelly it does not mean, that this is teleportation. After all before character is returned, he splits off into its own one character company. He is not returned directly from his former company.
CRF, Errata(Cards), Iron-Road wrote:Replacing the site card is considered movement, without a movement/hazard phase.
How long lasts replacing of site in this case and why it is considered as movement?
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Wacho
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Konrad Klar wrote:
Wacho wrote:So with all of those immediatelys I don't see any time where he can be considered alone and moving.
For the same reasons:
If a card must be discarded du to a passive condition, the card is discarded immediately, not in the next chain of effect.
Even if returning to the site of origin takes place immediatelly it does not mean, that this is teleportation. After all before character is returned, he splits off into its own one character company. He is not returned directly from his former company.
CRF, Errata(Cards), Iron-Road wrote:Replacing the site card is considered movement, without a movement/hazard phase.
How long lasts replacing of site in this case and why it is considered as movement?
It is not correct that the character splits off from his company and is then returned. These actions are simultaneous. So there is no time for the passive condition to be activated. It doesn't matter that the palatir would be discarded immediately, because there is no time when the character is alone and moving.

Iron-Road (and other such cards) are considered movement because you are at one site and then replace that site with another one. That's a completely different situation than being sent back to the site of origin while enroute.

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense logically for the character to be considered alone and moving, what I am saying is that according to the rules there isn't any time where he is.
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Konrad Klar
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Wacho wrote:It is not correct that the character splits off from his company and is then returned.
It is correct that its (one character) company is returned to the site of origin. It is impossible to return non-moving company.

If something changes immediatelly its state from A to B and to C, it does not mean that it is never in state B.
State B - one character company is moving
is necessary for
State C - one character company is returned to the site of origin.
There is no rule saying that if A is immediattely followed by B and B is immediatelly followed by C, then nothing can happen in state B.
You are supposing so.

If there is no time for something in middle, it merely means that there is no time for declaration of something in middle.
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Konrad Klar
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You are trating word "immediately" as having some important meaning.
I've searched through card's texts for revalence of this word. It is common. Sometimes it is used in conjunction with "discrded". What is difference between "are discarded" and "are immediately discarded"?
Are there some game mechanics referring to the "are discarded" and other reffering to "are immediately discarded"?
I think that "is returned" means exactly the same as "is immediately returned".
If "Another site card may be played and a movement/hazard phase immediately follows for that company." does it mean that between resolving the Bridge and new M/H phase there is no time for hand reconciling?
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