Council of Elrond

Hi,

is it possible to play we have come to kill to bring in a hobbit (I think yes, like chance meeting)? If yes, is it restricted to minion sides (I think no)?

Thanks for the answer

CU

Smaug

I also think that answer is "yes".
Is it restricted to minion sides? Only fallen wizard may have in its deck both We Have Come To Kill and Hobbits.

I guess Smaug meant "minion sites".
IMHO it should be playable at any site as it targets the charcacter not the site. And of course it can be played on Hero characters as well. At least I saw it beeing used like that a lot of times.

White Hand rules insert

You may use both hero and minion ressources.

I disagree, that WHCtK or ACM targets character. Character played as effect of WHCtK or ACM is not specified at declaration of those cards, it is even not required to have any character in hand (as it is in case of Helm of Her Secrecy and Eowyn).

Fine, but you agree Whctk is playable with a Hero charcater at any site type?

Yes. Site of certaint type is merely condition, but not target of WHCtK or ACM.

.. so you share my point. WHCTK is playable on hobbits and as well on minion and hero versions of sites!

I'm very sorry. I've made error.
We Have Come to Kill cannot be used to play Hobbits outside its home sites.
Problem is not opposite alignments of WHCtK and Hobbit characters (and possibly sites). Text of Hobbit characters says that unless in starting company Hobbits cannot be played outside its home site.
Even if card's text has priority over general rules, it has not priority over other card's texts unless (again) it is specifically stated.
Similarly effect that can cancel attack cannot be used against attack that states that it cannot be canceled.
A Chance Meeting has appropriate clause, We Have Come To Kill (and Thrall of The Voice) has not.

Konrad wrote:I'm very sorry. I've made error.
We Have Come to Kill cannot be used to play Hobbits outside its home sites.
Problem is not opposite alignments of WHCtK and Hobbit characters (and possibly sites). Text of Hobbit characters says that unless in starting company Hobbits cannot be played outside its home site.
Even if card's text has priority over general rules, it has not priority over other card's texts unless (again) it is specifically stated.
Similarly effect that can cancel attack cannot be used against attack that states that it cannot be canceled.
A Chance Meeting has appropriate clause, We Have Come To Kill (and Thrall of The Voice) has not.

what about fram framson and a chance meeting/ we have come to kill?
what happens in that situation?

We Have Come To Kill cannot be used to play Fram Framson outside his home site for the same reasons.
Case of ACM and Fram Framson is not so obvious.
ACM says that "A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play..." .
In first set - The Wizards - Hobbits and characters that cannot be played outside its home sites were the same groups of cards.
I don't know official errata or clarification to ACM, but probably ICE's intention was general reference to characters that cannot be played outside its home sites, not only to the Hobbits.*
But this interpretation is not supported by official rules/erratas.

*) Joe Bish in his The Play and Examples File makes similar assumtion.

CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 16 wrote:16. Can I use "A chance meeting" in order to play Fram Framson?
*** Yes.

Rulings Digest #63 wrote:Now in case I really missed something, can We Have Come to Kill and/or A
Chance Meeting be used to bring in Orcs & Trolls? What about Fram?
*** Yes.
--------
Can We Have Come to Kill bring in hobbits?
*** Given that you're a Fallen-wizard, yes.

So this is what the current rules say!

So phrase present in text of ACM and absent in WHCtK is meaningless?

Further question -- given the nature of the two previous rulings, may FWs use Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill to bring in characters with more than 5 (or even 6!) mind?

We Have Come to Kill allows any character to be played by current rulings, so this should override the 5-mind rule in much the same way that it overrides the agent rule or the "avatar at site" rule.

Can these cards be used to override Mask Torn (mind limited to 4, 3)?

(Keeping in mind that Chance Meeting/We Have Come to Kill trump just about every other rule on the face of the planet. )

Another argument to use it in "right" way

Play and Examples File:

We Have Come to Kill

• May be used by a Fallen Wizard player to bring into play hobbits, Fram Framson, Orcs & Trolls (even if Bad Company, etc. aren’t in play) and Agents, but not a character with more than 5 mind. Orcs & Trolls are playable because the WH Rules only say that these characters can’t be in a “starting company” without appropriate stage resources.

Cheers