Post/common effect - convention

[Konrad Klar]

The Wizards: Athelas
Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U

Resource: Minor Item

A Dúnadan can tap and use this item to heal a character in his company (change from wounded to well, character remains tapped).
Aragorn II can also tap and use this item to remove a corruption card from a character in his company.
Discard after use.

The White Hand: White Light Broken
Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U3

Resource: Short-event

Magic. Sorcery. Playable on a sorcery-using character. All of his corruption checks are modified by +2 for the rest of the turn.
Alternatively, playable on a sorcery-using Fallen-wizard. -4 to his stage points (to a minimum of 3) for the rest of the turn.
Unless the sorcery-user is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check.

The Lidless Eye: Deeper Shadow
Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U

Resource: Short-event

Magic. Shadow-magic. Playable during the movement/havard phase on a moving shadow-magic-using character. In character's site path, change a Ruins and Lairs to a or one to a . 3 Alternatively, decrease the hazard limit against his company by one (to no minimum). Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3.

The White Hand: Echoes of the Song
Rarity: Common, Precise: C4

Hazard: Short-event

If your opponent has more than one stage card and 4 or more , he must discard one stage card of his choice. Alternatively, force a target character to make a corruption check. Remove this card from the game. "Memories of the beauty of Valinor bore power to dispel the corruption of darkness..."-Kuduk Lore

In case of Athelas, White Light Broken there is a line break between last sentence and previous sentence. In case of Deeper Shadow, Echoes of the Song there are no such line break.
What is reason for which "Discard after use,", "Unless the sorcery-user is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check." should be treated as last action for both primary and alternative use of Athelas, White Light Broken respectively and "Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3.", "Remove this card from the game" should be treated in the same way, and not as last action of (only) alternative use of Deeper Shadow, Echoes of the Song respectively?

[Bandobras Took]

In this case, it is the ambiguities of the English language. I do not believe the presence or absence of a line break is meant to have rules significance; it is more likely that such is simply formatting to make the text more readable/better balanced within the confines of the text box.

[Konrad Klar]

So "Remove this card from the game." is last action of alternative use of Echoes of the Song or is last action of both primary and alternative use.
And what decides about it?

[Bandobras Took]

It's for both, in the absence of any statement that indicates it's for only one of the uses. This would be the general policy of dealing with discard/remove clauses on any card in the game.

[Konrad Klar]

And for text like "Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3." too?

[Bandobras Took]

That is the default way to understand it, yes.

[Konrad Klar]

Almost all cards I know that have alternative uses and have post/common action/effect like "Cannot be duplicated", "Unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check..." use convention that the last sentence is separated from rest of text by line break.
Exception are Deeper Shadow and Echoes of the Song.

Nothing but habit, plus lack of reason for that the last sentence in conjunction with primary effect would be illogical, allows me to treat Deeper Shadow as thought the line break would be present.

Sadly, I do not see any regularity in texts of the two cards that would support the way in which they are usually interpreted.

[Bandobras Took]

There isn't any regularity. Compare Will of Sauron with Fellowship. One is indented and the other is not. It means nothing other than that they didn't feel like a new paragraph.

[Konrad Klar]

The two cards are not cards with alternative uses. There is no common text shared between primary and alternative use. So question of separation the common text from rest of text does not exist here.

That or another formatting - line break, empty line etc. - may have or may not have other meaning in other situations.
I did not suggest that it have always some meaning.

Some time I looked on White Light Broken that in alternative use may be played only on sorcery-using Fallen-wizard. In last sentence text of the card says "Unless the sorcery-user is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check." . So I have s reason to suspect that the text is not specific to alternative use. Sorcery-using Fallen-wizard that is also (is also treated as) Ringwraith is not common situation.

What indicates that a last sentence is common for other cards with alternative use? It revealed that it is an indent/line break.
And only Deeper Shadow and Echoes of the Song looks odd on this background (maybe my research are incomplete).

[meaglyn]

In English the period is enough. I'd expect (but have not gone searching) a ";" or an "and" to connect that "post/common effect" to the alternate effect if it was only part of the alternate effect. Line break does not matter. But as we know some of the text on early CCGs (and certainly MECCG is one such) were not as carefully/consistently worded as they could have been.

E.g.

"Alternatively, decrease the hazard limit against his company by one (to no minimum); unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3. "

or

"Alternatively, decrease the hazard limit against his company by one (to no minimum) and, unless he is a Ringwraith, he makes a corruption check modified by -3. "

[Konrad Klar]

Period may separate a description of actions/effects belonging to the same - primary/alternative - effect. There are six periods in text of Deeper Shadow.
Depending on application a period, comma, colon, semicolon, other characters may have different meaning.
If they are used consistently it may be said that there is a convention. Convention may be not respected as anything that is possible to break.

Acknowledging an existence of a mess somewhere is not the same as acceptance of the mess.

[meaglyn]

Okay, so deeper shadow was a poor choice of example on my part. I went with the text you posted, which is not an accurate reflection of what's actually on the card. In that case the separate paragraph does matter I'd think. The corruption check is only for the alternate effect.

White light it's a separate paragraph not attached to the alternate effect so applies to both.

Echoes of the song: no paragraphs, just sentences. Remove from game on either. (This is one where a ";" or "and" would matter).

Athelas: separate paragraphs. Discard for either use.

Awaken earth's rule: paragraphs, cannot be duplicated for either use

Hounds of Sauron: paragraphs, corruption check applies to both uses

skipped some...

Sublety of Guile: This seems to be a bug on meccg.com's card image. The Cannot be duplicated should be indented. It's properly indented my physical card.

Wizard's trove: The last sentence "Place Wizard's trove ..." is not indented and is part of the previous paragraph - applied to the alternate effect. No space for "Place" in the previous line.


So not really that much of a mess really. And pretty consistent

[Konrad Klar]

So not really that much of a mess really. And pretty consistent

Not much. Only Deeper Shadow and Echoes of the Song.
Or even not they, if it is intended that the last sentence of their texts applies only to alternative effect.

[meaglyn]

So not really that much of a mess really. And pretty consistent

Not much. Only Deeper Shadow and Echoes of the Song.
Or even not they, if it is intended that the last sentence of their texts applies only to alternative effect.

I agree and said why I think Deeper applies only to the alternative effect.

For Echoes of the song I see 3 sentences all at the same level. The only way that makes sense to me is equivalent to it being 3 paragraphs. So to me it seems clear the last sentence applies equally to both effects.
If it was meant to be only on the alternate effect it would either need a ";" or "and" or to be its own paragraph consisting of those 2 last sentences.

Having to remove it from the game only for acting like weariness of the heart seems harsh too

[Bandobras Took]

Having to remove it from the game only for acting like weariness of the heart seems harsh too

If not, there would never be a reason to include Weariness of the Heart.

@ Konrad: The point is simply that the use of paragraphs is arbitrary. There is no reason to assume deliberate function in one instance of paragraphing when most if not all others show no sign of such.