Council of Elrond

Apologies if this has already been answered, but I was unable to effectively search the forum (most of the keywords being far too common).

MEWH wrote:You may not play a hero resource permanent-event on a company with an Orc or Troll in it.

This seems to only restrict play. (Similar to the rule that FWs can *have* a character with 6+ mind, they just can't play one or start with one.)

If this is the case, then it seems feasible to play hero permanent events on a company *without* orcs or trolls in it, then join that company to a company *with* orcs and trolls in it. No further hero permanent events would be able to be played, but there are no provisions for discarding any events in such a case.

Has ICE anywhere indicated that such events are to be discarded, or can I make that extremely odd Into The Smoking Cone deck I just thought of?

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:15 am This seems to only restrict play. (Similar to the rule that FWs can *have* a character with 6+ mind, they just can't play one or start with one.)

Yes. Some responsibility for wording.
If an agent with Inner Cunning may start at under-deeps or , even if he cannot move here, then also hero resource permanent-event may be on company with Orc and/or Troll even if it may not be played on such company.

Some doubts:

White Hand wrote:Because most Fallen-wizard characters will not be Orcs and Trolls, specific rules
concerning Orc and Troll characters are collected in one section at the end of these
rules.

The section sometimes mentions Orc/Troll characters, sometimes (just) Orcs/Trolls.
So I am not sure whether a company with Great Lord of Goblin-gate and without Orc/Troll characters is affected by the rule or not.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:56 pm If an agent with Inner Cunning may start at under-deeps or , even if he cannot move here,...

That is something I've never realized, cool!

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 12:15 am Apologies if this has already been answered, but I was unable to effectively search the forum (most of the keywords being far too common).

MEWH wrote:You may not play a hero resource permanent-event on a company with an Orc or Troll in it.

This seems to only restrict play. (Similar to the rule that FWs can *have* a character with 6+ mind, they just can't play one or start with one.)

If this is the case, then it seems feasible to play hero permanent events on a company *without* orcs or trolls in it, then join that company to a company *with* orcs and trolls in it. No further hero permanent events would be able to be played, but there are no provisions for discarding any events in such a case.

But

MEWH wrote:A hero resource may not target an Orc or Troll character (e.g. Orc and Troll characters may not use Block, Escape, Flatter a Foe, etc.).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:56 pm Yes. Some responsibility for wording.
If an agent with Inner Cunning may start at under-deeps or , even if he cannot move here, then also hero resource permanent-event may be on company with Orc and/or Troll even if it may not be played on such company.

This is unclear:

MEWH wrote:A tapped or untapped agent may move to a non-Haven, non-Under-deeps site in the same region or in an adjacent region
(see below). The agent taps if not already tapped.

ICE Rules Digest wrote: Against Fallen-wizard player: where an Agent can move to? Can it move to R&L Isengard but an attack is automatically canceled?
Only elven characters may move to sites that are Wizardhavens.

What happens when the Agent is revealed and it has moved through a site, which have become Haven (Hidden Haven, Mischief in a Mean Way)?
It would be discarded.

If an non-Elf agent should be discarded when is revealed at a Wizardhaven, perhaps an agent should also be discarded when is revealed at an under-deeps site.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 2:56 pm The section sometimes mentions Orc/Troll characters, sometimes (just) Orcs/Trolls.
So I am not sure whether a company with Great Lord of Goblin-gate and without Orc/Troll characters is affected by the rule or not.

Great Lord of Goblin-gate has race, is an Orc.

Annatar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:07 pm ICE Rules Digest wrote:
Against Fallen-wizard player: where an Agent can move to? Can it move to R&L Isengard but an attack is automatically canceled?
Only elven characters may move to sites that are Wizardhavens.

What happens when the Agent is revealed and it has moved through a site, which have become Haven (Hidden Haven, Mischief in a Mean Way)?
It would be discarded.
If an non-Elf agent should be discarded when is revealed at a Wizardhaven, perhaps an agent should also be discarded when is revealed at an under-deeps site.

ICE Rules Digest says about discarding revealed agent who has moved to a site to which he may not move legally.

Annatar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:07 pm Great Lord of Goblin-gate has race, is an Orc.

And is not Orc character.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:54 pm ICE Rules Digest says about discarding revealed agent who has moved to a site to which he may not move legally.

No, that's not what the ICE's NetRep is saying,

ICE Rules Digest #94 wrote: Can an Agent be revealed/used at its homesite, if its homesite is a Wizardhaven for the opponent if the Agent cannot normally move to a Haven? E.g. can Wormtongue be potentially used to influence a faction against a Fallen-wizard opponent at the Wizardhaven Isengard?
No. Non-elf Agents may not go to Wizardhavens.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:54 pm And is not Orc character.

But, as the characters, allies are entities associated with the company. Some allies have race. An Orc is an Orc. Any company that contains an Orc or a Troll is an overt company (i.e., a company with Great Lord of Goblin-gate is an overt company). For the same reason, you may not play a hero resource permanent-event on a company with an Orc or Troll in it.

Annatar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:53 am

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:54 pm ICE Rules Digest says about discarding revealed agent who has moved to a site to which he may not move legally.

No, that's not what the ICE's NetRep is saying,

ICE Rules Digest #94 wrote: Can an Agent be revealed/used at its homesite, if its homesite is a Wizardhaven for the opponent if the Agent cannot normally move to a Haven? E.g. can Wormtongue be potentially used to influence a faction against a Fallen-wizard opponent at the Wizardhaven Isengard?
No. Non-elf Agents may not go to Wizardhavens.

I had in mind your previous citation.

Against Fallen-wizard player: where an Agent can move to? Can it move to R&L Isengard but an attack is automatically canceled?
Only elven characters may move to sites that are Wizardhavens.

What happens when the Agent is revealed and it has moved through a site, which have become Haven (Hidden Haven, Mischief in a Mean Way)?
It would be discarded.

If it comes to ICE Rules Digest #94, it answers other question than asked.

Annatar wrote: ↑Tue Aug 22, 2023 7:53 am But, as the characters, allies are entities associated with the company. Some allies have race. An Orc is an Orc. Any company that contains an Orc or a Troll is an overt company (i.e., a company with Great Lord of Goblin-gate is an overt company). For the same reason, you may not play a hero resource permanent-event on a company with an Orc or Troll in it.

The section is announced as concerning Orc and Troll characters. But sometimes mentions "Orc and Troll characters" and sometimes "Orcs and Trolls".
Either deliberately or by untidiness.
Allies count as characters for some purposes, but besides ally and character are distinct terms.

Just a note that a resource which targets a company doesn't necessarily target any characters in the company.

1.
Returning to original question.

The Lidless Eye: Rebel-talk
Rarity: Common, Precise: CB, CS1

Hazard: Permanent-event

Playable on a non-Ringwraith, non-Wizard, character with mind of 7 or less. Character cannot be controlled by direct influence. Once during each of his organization phases, the character may attempt to remove this card by making a roll (drawing a #)-if the result is less than 7, discard this card. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.

Fact that Rebel-talk cannot be played on character with mind greater than 7 does not mean that it may not be on such character.
There will be no problem if the card will be played on Beorn and later Beorn's mind will increase to over 7.

I did not expect that the analogy to agent - Inner Cunning - Under-deeps will be controversial.
And I did not know what rulings said about that.

2.

Annatar wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:07 pm Great Lord of Goblin-gate has race, is an Orc.

And it newer was a matter of controversy.
If specific rules concerning Orc and Troll characters say sometimes about Orc and Troll characters and sometimes about (just) Orcs and Trolls, there are two possibilities:

- everything is in scope of the specific rules; "Orcs and Trolls" means "Orc and Troll characters",
- specific rules go beyond their scope; "Orcs and Trolls" applies to Orc and Troll characters, allies, everything "Orcs and Trolls".

Second possibility is like including some regulations to Highway Code in Budget Bill. That is messy but possible.
Errata for particular cards in general rules is not something uncommon for ICE.