Armory Hoard Bypass

[Konrad Klar]

"You may play a ring special item placed with this card as though it were in your hand." This is an example where normal restrictions would apply.

Stored cards are not considered to be in play, except for uniqueness.

Cards under Armory are not in play, are stored. Cards placed "off to the side" with Rumours of Rings are in play.
Some form of tunneling of the cards trough hand is needed. Otherwise playing them would be playing the cards that are already in play.

[Bandobras Took]

You may place any minor items from your hand under Armory during your organization phase.

You seem to have forgotten that storing is only one of the ways of putting an item under Armory.

Also, certain cards *do* place other cards off to the side. Armory is not one of these cards. Cards that place things off to the side are:

1) Prisoner cards, by rule (Dark Minions insert, Taking Prisoners); and
2) Those with explicit text to that effect (Sacrifice of Form, Rumours of Rings, various hazards, etc.)

At the risk of being pedantic, the indications are that your reading of Armory is flawed.

The idea that Armory only changes the source of the item follows neither from the card text (where one plays an item under Armory *instead* of following a normal process) nor from any rule you have cited, and, indeed, you have just cited rules that have little or even nothing to do with Armory's text.

(Note also that the item is stored to Armory *instead* of to your MP pile -- the normal process and rules do not apply. Otherwise, by rule, items stored under Armory can never be played -- MELE p. 48, Storing Cards.)

[Konrad Klar]

Only you and your companies can use Armory. You may place any minor items from your hand under Armory during your
organization phase. A character at a Haven [ ] can store a minor item under Armory instead of to your marshalling point pile.
When you otherwise would be allowed to play a minor item from your hand at a Border‐hold [ ], Free‐hold [ ], or Haven [ ],
you may play an item from under Armory instead. If you have at least three minor items under Armory, gain 1 marshalling point.

Because this topic has grow to 2 pages I think that it makes a sense to quote the text of card again.

You seem to have forgotten that storing is only one of the ways of putting an item under Armory.

So cards under Armory is mix of cards placed and stored. One are in play, other not.
Playing one of former from under Armory is playing a card that is already in play. And there is a need to remember which are which.
Or both are treated uniformly. As not in play and there is no playing of the cards that are already in play.

(Note also that the item is stored to Armory *instead* of to your MP pile -- the normal process and rules do not apply. Otherwise, by rule, items stored under Armory can never be played -- MELE p. 48, Storing Cards.)

And could not be targeted. But Neither so Ancient Nor so Potent has special text that allows for it. Armory has special text that allows for playing of some cards already stored (these from under Armory).

[Bandobras Took]

And could not be targeted. But Neither so Ancient Nor so Potent has special text that allows for it. Armory has special text that allows for playing of some cards already stored (these from under Armory).

My contention is that the same special text which overrides that specific rule also overrides the rule about where hoard items may be played.

[Konrad Klar]

[...] When you otherwise would be allowed to play a minor item from your hand at a Border‐hold [ ], Free‐hold [ ], or Haven [ ],
you may play an item from under Armory instead. [...]

Instead of a normal character, during your organization phase you may bring into play one character (including a minion agent) with up to a 6 mind. [...]

What instead what?
Word "instead" in separation from context does not have any meaning.

(Item from under Armory) instead (a minor item that you otherwise would be allowed to play from hand at some sites)?
(From under Armory) instead (from hand)?
Both?

There are so-called "challenges" in tennis. Player may challenge a decision of arbiter and demand to display video recording of an action. I am not arbiter, you are not arbiter too. Regardless of what the video shows, someone may still say that ball was "in out" or "in field".

[Konrad Klar]

Curiosity: I think (consistency would require) that Crown of Flowers with an item stored under Armory is immune to Doors of Night (as long the item is under Armory).

[Konrad Klar]

And if Armory is in play with Crown of Flowers and will be discarded along with it, the minor items under Armory will remain in place. Not in play, because they are considered stored.

[Konrad Klar]

I do not know, why I did not think about this before, but:
if a character bears Elven Cloak and tries to play minor item at , or at , or at , can he play Elven Cloak from under Armory?

If "When you otherwise would be allowed to play a minor item from your hand at a Border‐hold [ ], Free‐hold [ ], or Haven [ ],
you may play an item from under Armory instead." would have a power of superseding the restrictions regarding "which item may be played" then yes.

[dirhaval]

Depends on site. Sting cannot be played from Armory it said item is in play. There are still checks. Rebuild the town can allow hoard minor items. Good way to keep items away from opponent, emerald of doriath, thrors map.

[Konrad Klar]

@dirhaval
If unique card would be under Armory it would be strange if its other copy would be in play.

I do not know, why I did not think about this before, but:

I know why I did not think about this before.
Even if a character is not able to bear some item, it does not mean that he may not make an attempt to play the item.
At worst the attempt will be unsuccessful, but something may change between declaration and resolution which will make the attempt successful.

[Bandobras Took]

Apologies, I missed this before:

Elven Cloak would be a case of card vs. card as opposed to card vs. rule. Also, Armory merely modifies the play of an item, not the legal bearer of an item. (Likewise minion Necklace of Girion allows play of Usriev of Treachery at non-hoard sites, but would not allow a bearer with prowess less than 5.)

(Now that I think about it, Necklace allows the play of major items even if not at the correct site to play major items. In the same way, Armory allows the play of hoard items even if not at the correct site to play hoard items.)

[Konrad Klar]

(Now that I think about it, Necklace allows the play of major items even if not at the correct site to play major items.

There is no "correct site to play major items" if the items are not played at a site. Likewise there is no "correct site" for playing of a ring special item.
Items may be played from under Armory when " you otherwise would be allowed to play a minor item from your hand at a , , or Haven".

Bold mine.

How it would beat "which kind of item may be played" ? I do not know. I do not think that it beats "which kind of item may be played".

[Bandobras Took]

Major Items are not Special Items.

There absolutely *is* a correct site for playing major items.

If a character is at an untapped site that indicates that a specific type of item card (gold ring, minor, major, or greater) is “playable,” he may tap during the site phase to bring an item of that type into play. The item card is placed under the character’s card. After an item is played at a site, the site card is tapped.

Special items have their own rule listed immediately after.

A special item states at what sites and under which conditions it is “playable.”

And even a clarification for ring special items.

Clarification: A special item with the keyword, Ring, at the beginning of its text does not tap the character or the site when played.

And then minor items get an alternate method of playing, which does not change the correct site for minor item play as listed above in the slightest, but rather reinforces it:

If a resource card that taps a site (e.g., ally, faction, item, etc.) is successfully played at a site, one additional character may tap to play a minor item. Such a minor item may be played even if the site does not specifically state that a minor item is playable at the site.

Necklace overturns both the first quoted rule and the rules on hoard items found in Against the Shadow:

Certain item are hoard items. Such an item may only be played at a site that contains a hoard.

Armory also negates this rule.

[Bandobras Took]

See also Balrog Rules Summary:

To play an item, the item must either state it is playable at the site, or the site must state that items of that type are playable at the site.

[Konrad Klar]

Major Items are not Special Items.

There absolutely *is* a correct site for playing major items.

I did not say about "major items" in general, nor about "items" in general. I did say about items that are not played at a site.
Item played in result of discarding of Necklace of Girion is not played at site. It is played under control of a character at a site. So it may not be taken from under Armory.

If a resource card that taps a site (e.g., ally, faction, item, etc.) is successfully played at a site, one additional character may tap to play a minor item. Such a minor item may be played even if the site does not specifically state that a minor item is playable at the site.

As though someone did not acknowledge this.

Certain items are hoard items. Such an item may only be played at a site that contains
a hoard. Each site with a Dragon automatic-attack (i.e., each Dragon’s lair) contains a
hoard. A hoard minor item may not be included with a starting company, and may not
be played at a site that does not contain a hoard.

Example: You cannot play a hoard minor item at Wellinghall after successfully
influencing the Ents of Fangorn like you can with a normal minor item.
Wellinghall does not contain a hoard.

Or this.