Open To The Summons In The Pool

[Bandobras Took]

Open To The Summons states that it is "Playable on a company." and that "This card may be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item."

Does this mean that, during the draft, one must have already revealed a character so that a company exists on which Open to the Summons can be played?

[Konrad Klar]

Yes.

[Manuel]

I guess the only difference is when you want to reveal Open to the summons as your first card, right?

To me, the next line right after the one you quoted is what allows you do that:

@ Card Erratum: Change text to:
«Playable on a company. One agent character may be played with target company at a Darkhaven or in your starting company—place this card with the agent. -1 to his mind to a minimum of 1. This card may be played with a starting company in lieu of a minor item. When played as such, reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character. Does not allow you to start with a character that says he cannot be in the starting company. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.»
[CoE IE 2018]

Underline mine. According to that, I'd say you can reveal it as your first character even if there's no other character.

[Konrad Klar]

If condition of playing a card to reveal does not exist, the card may not be revealed during draft.
Being revealed as if it were a character does not allow the Wizard's Myrmidon to be revealed as first card in draft.

[Mordakai]

Maybe the point is that you don't play the characters (or perm-events) during the draft, you reveal them.

Each Player selects up to 10 characters to put into his or her pool of potential starting characters. This happens before characters are selected for the play deck. Certain cards may be revealed as thought they were starting characters. These cards are included in the pool of starting characters, but do not count against the 10 character maximum. Each player reveals his or her first choice for a starting character simultaneously with opponent. If a unique character is duplicated by opponent’s selection, both characters are set aside (this character may not appear in either player’s starting company).

Each player then selects a second character to reveal (but not a unique character revealed earlier). Each unduplicated revealed character goes into its player’s starting company. Each player continues this process until one of the following occurs: the player has 5 characters in his or her company (6 for a minion player), the total Mind of that player’s starting characters is 20, the player has exhausted his or her pool of 10 potential starting characters, or the player decides to stop revealing characters (i.e., he or she is satisfied with the starting company). Note that when one player stops, the other player continues revealing characters until one of the four conditions is met. A player may not reveal a character that would bring the total Mind of all of his or her starting characters above 20.

Also, I think (but may be wrong here) that you put your starting site after you drafted your initial company. That makes impossible to "play" characters, as characters must be played at a site.

I would understand from all of this that you can totally play any (legal) perm-event as the first card in the draft (Open to the Summons, stage events...).

[Konrad Klar]

I think that what actually happens during draft is a revealing a card and then, if the card is not set aside, playing the card. If some card has to have an effect on play, it must be in play. If a card was not in play at some moment and is in play at some moment the card has been played between the moments.

Open To The Summons (after erratas), Thrall of the Voice, Hidden Haven, Bad Company have effects on play that count as soon as during draft. No agent may be in starting company if not effect of Open To The Summons (after erratas) or Thrall of the Voice, Orc and Elf may not be in the same company at Ettenmoors if Ettenmoors is , no Orc may be in starting company of FW player is not effect of Bad Company.

[Mordakai]

You could be right, makes sense, but the rule only uses reveal, not play. With that thread of reasoning... could you reveal Strider during the draft and, after you have your initial company composed, change it with Aragorn II (if you have 1 spare GI point left), because the character is "in play"? I don't know, maybe...

Certain cards must be considered "in play" during the draft to allow other cards to be revealed (an agent needs Summons, a 6-minder needs Thrall, etc), I agree with that... but the rule doesn't say that you play those cards during the draft.

I still don't think the cards are actually played. Minor items from the draft are not "played" on the characters, are "assigned to" characters. Playing them could force you to tap the character receiving it? Not a big deal, but again, not what the rules say.

Sidenote (I could be wrong): when you "reveal" an agent, you are not playing it. You could have played it (face down) many turns before. It is revealed, and automatically is considered in play and can do stuff (usually, Baduila sending you back ) Maybe it's the same mechanic here? In fact, in the original rules say:

Place one to six starting minion characters (no Ringwraiths, no minion agents from Dark Minions) face down in front of you. The combined mind attributes (see Mind Attribute) of these characters must be 20 or less. You and your opponent reveal your characters simultaneously,

Underline mine.

It seems that are placed and then revealed. A revealed card is in play, but has not been played?? lol, interesting stuff.

After all this (probably) nonsense, I still think you can play Open to the Summons as your first card, though

EDITED to correct minor stuff

[Konrad Klar]

You could be right, makes sense, but the rule only uses reveal, not play. With that thread of reasoning... could you reveal Strider during the draft and, after you have your initial company composed, change it with Aragorn II (if you have 1 spare GI point left), because the character is "in play"? I don't know, maybe...

"I can do X only if Y is in play" is not the same as "I can do X just because Y is in play".
"Needed" is not the same as "sufficient".

Certain cards must be considered "in play" during the draft to allow other cards to be revealed (an agent needs Summons, a 6-minder needs Thrall, etc), I agree with that... but the rule doesn't say that you play those cards during the draft.

Rules do not say.
Rules of METW did not say anything about passive conditions, but actions created by Snowstorm, Long Winter follow the mechanics of actions caused by passive conditions. Without rules regarding passive conditions or without similar set of rules it is not possible to determine how exactly effects of the cards work.

I still don't think the cards are actually played. Minor items from the draft are not "played" on the characters, are "assigned to" characters. Playing them could force you to tap the character receiving it? Not a big deal, but again, not what the rules say.

Playing of a special ring item does not force a bearer to tap. "X is played" does not necessarily involve "tapping to play X".

Sidenote (I could be wrong): when you "reveal" an agent, you are not playing it. You could have played it (face down) many turns before. It is revealed, and automatically is considered in play and can do stuff (usually, Baduila sending you back ) Maybe it's the same mechanic here? In fact, in the original rules say:

Place one to six starting minion characters (no Ringwraiths, no minion agents from Dark Minions) face down in front of you. The combined mind attributes (see Mind Attribute) of these characters must be 20 or less. You and your opponent reveal your characters simultaneously,

It is not the same mechanics. You can play Nobody's Friend on face-down agent. You could not play Nobody's Friend on agent not in play.

It seems that are placed and then revealed. A revealed card is in play, but has not been played?? lol, interesting stuff.

Mere "is placed" and mere "is revealed" do not mean "is in play, nor "is played"". Orcrist placed as on guard card is not played and is not in play. Balin card revealed during influence attempt against Balin is not played nor is in play.

EDIT:
"effects of the card swork." -> "effects of the cards work"

[Mordakai]

Where I'm going with all of this is that in the draft it seems that the rules that the game follows when the turns start seem not to be followed during the draft. You place cards, you reveal them, and from that point on they may or may not allow you to place other cards and reveal them. Honestly, I don't think it has anything to do with any concept of the rest of the rules.

Also, the concept of "play a card" is defined in "Ruling by Term":

Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play.

You will probably have your pool "in your hand", but that set of cards is still your "pool", not your "hand", so you are not playing those cards.

[Konrad Klar]

Playing a card is the process of bringing a card from your hand into play.

That effectively would prevent a playing any site card except Refuge, Wondrous Maps, Morannon.

And according to the definition:

If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a
short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had
been played as such from your hand.

resolves to:

"If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a
short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had
been bring from your hand into play as such from your hand."

It is when language glitches achieve status of rules.

[Konrad Klar]

You place cards, you reveal them, and from that point on they may or may not allow you to place other cards and reveal them. Honestly, I don't think it has anything to do with any concept of the rest of the rules.

There is some state of software for which it may be said that Linux, Windows, other OS is running.
It does not mean that outside the state no code is executed by processor.

Fact is that some operations performed during draft depend on presence of other cards.

Starting Stage Cards
You must attempt to start with one, two, or three (your choice) stage resource permanent-event cards in play. these cards must have a combined total of three (3) stage points. At least one of these cards must be non-unique. You may not start such a card if the conditions required to play the card do not exist. These cards should be revealed as if they were starting characters with duplicate unique cards being discarded.

Underline mine.

The situation is most visible during draft in game with Fallen Wizard. But the same happens in case of Open To The Summons (n.b. from MEWH) used by minion player during draft.

EDIT: "in which it may be said" -> "for which it may be said"

[Mordakai]

And according to the definition:

If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a
short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had
been played as such from your hand.

resolves to:

"If a Nazgûl is tapped to become a short-event as printed on its card, it turns into a
short-event upon declaration. At this point, the Nazgûl is a short-event just as if had
been bring from your hand into play as such from your hand."

It is when language glitches achieve status of rules.

That is so good!!

Reading again the card, it says

reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character

that seems pretty straightforward. No rules, card says how to use...

[Konrad Klar]

Reading again the card, it says

reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character

that seems pretty straightforward. No rules, card says how to use...

I thought that obstacle is "Playable on a company." when there is no company.

[Mordakai]

Yeah, I know, but the card says "reveal it when starting companies are determined as if it were a character". You are not playing it with the same mechanic of a permanent event, you are playing it as a character.

[Konrad Klar]

You are not playing it with the same mechanic of a permanent event, you are playing it as a character.

And maybe this fix a whole rest.
You can have in pool and reveal up to three copies of non-unique character during draft.
So up to three copies of Open To The Summons may be in pool and revealed despite the fact that the card may be played in lieu of a minor item (number of minor item is limited to 2)?

EDIT: "up to three non-unique characters" -> "up to three copies of non-unique character"