Council of Elrond

Just a quick clarification regarding Alatar teleporting:

If I have Arwen in my company (for example), the opponent plays a cave drake - so two strikes attackers chooses defending characters. If Alatar teleports can he then face one of the two strikes, regardless of the opponents selection? If this is the case, it could make Alatar quite useful in some situations?

Yes. He can.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:48 pm Yes. He can.

Excellent! Thanks for this.

Lake Town Geezer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:36 pm Just a quick clarification regarding Alatar teleporting:

If I have Arwen in my company (for example), the opponent plays a cave drake - so two strikes attackers chooses defending characters. If Alatar teleports can he then face one of the two strikes, regardless of the opponents selection? If this is the case, it could make Alatar quite useful in some situations?

You say "regardless of the opponent's selection" but actually Alatar will be using this ability BEFORE the opponent chooses. And then when it comes time for the opponent to assign strikes; yes, a strike must be assigned to Alatar. The CRF states: "When Alatar uses his special ability he must face a strike. Alatar overrides all other effects pertaining to the assigning of strikes." and "Alatar must teleport and declare he is facing a strike before any other strikes are assigned."

Sort of a side topic, but this situation comes up here and there because the players are always waiting to see what their opponent will do before they make decisions. It seems like a good practice to ask: "may I assign strikes"? Otherwise your opponent can ask you to "backup" (as they are allowed by the rules) and they can play cards, etc. It would be a bit unfair if you assign the cave-drake strikes and then the opponent says "oh wait, I will use Alatar." So you ask them upfront if you can assign and if they say "yes," they cannot pretend that you moved on without asking them and demand that you "backup."

Chris, your aside got me thinking that maybe we should compile a small document with MECCG in game etiquette and key questions. Like, "Does it resolve? Cancel? Shall I assign? etc etc"

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:37 pm Sort of a side topic, but this situation comes up here and there because the players are always waiting to see what their opponent will do before they make decisions. It seems like a good practice to ask: "may I assign strikes"? Otherwise your opponent can ask you to "backup" (as they are allowed by the rules) and they can play cards, etc. It would be a bit unfair if you assign the cave-drake strikes and then the opponent says "oh wait, I will use Alatar." So you ask them upfront if you can assign and if they say "yes," they cannot pretend that you moved on without asking them and demand that you "backup."

Or: some players are forgetting to say "pass". Some other players assume that some period of silence means "pass".

A company enters Moria, Redoubled Force is in play, and suddenly AA is 7 strikes with prowess of 9.
Resource player did not say that he plays Marvels Told on Redoubled Force, and, after a second or two, his opponent assumed that nothing has been declared in response to "+3 strikes, +2 to prowess".

sarma72 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:50 pm Chris, your aside got me thinking that maybe we should compile a small document with MECCG in game etiquette and key questions. Like, "Does it resolve? Cancel? Shall I assign? etc etc"

There's this thread on "maxims for new players." Maybe it's a long the same lines. viewtopic.php?f=128&t=4599&p=39470&hilit=maxims#p39470

Another question I ask: "Since we are all ignoring the Strike Sequence, can I just roll a bunch of dice or are you going to want to play something?"

Or if there are excess strikes, I'll just start the discussion "Gimli first, any excess -1 mods?" Some people will just tell you up front.

Or, I didn't make a body check on Nameless Thing: "I'm just not going to roll anymore body checks." Some people will just roll body checks after all of the strike dice rolls.

Or, when I transfer an item: "this corruption check is automatic but since this game is a facade for rolling dice I'm just going to roll the dice."

OK, my understanding of this, is the Alatar teleport is triggered by the assigning attack not the strike. So Alatar could also teleport when a company decideds to 'go in' to Moria for example provided the site attack is cancelled.

So in the Cave Drake example:

1. Opponent says 'I am playing a cave drake on your compnay@.
2. I say - ok I am not cancelling the attack.
3. Alatar appears in a puff of smoke and shouts "attack me first you slimy bastard"!
4. Alatar faces one strike.
5. The opponent then assigns the second strike to whoever he/she pleases?

Lake Town Geezer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:46 pm OK, my understanding of this, is the Alatar teleport is triggered by the assigning attack not the strike. So Alatar could also teleport when a company decideds to 'go in' to Moria for example provided the site attack is cancelled.

Alatar's ability is not "triggered," it is an action you can choose to make when the company is facing an attack, before strikes are assigned. I'm not really following your explain on Moria regarding "provided the site attack is cancelled." Also, there are restrictions at the beginning of the site phase for resources, and maybe characters? but it's probably not worth getting into here.

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Lake Town Geezer wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:46 pm So in the Cave Drake example:

1. Opponent says 'I am playing a cave drake on your compnay@.
2. I say - ok I am not cancelling the attack.
3. Alatar appears in a puff of smoke and shouts "attack me first you slimy bastard"!
4. Alatar faces one strike.
5. The opponent then assigns the second strike to whoever he/she pleases?

I've noticed that people want to ask whether or not the attack is cancelled. But as a general practice, you do not want to be answering this question because it doesn't make any difference on the game and you are free to change your mind if the opponent plays hazards. What matters is whether strikes have been assigned, because then it is too late for the resource player to cancel the attack and it is also too late for the hazard player to play cards that change the number of strikes (even if those cards have other effects, or even Doors of Night, etc).

Since the hazard player is the one who will be assigning strikes, they can ask "may I assign strikes?" and then you can say "No wait, I will use Alatar's ability." You could also just say this before the opponent asks.

Then, once the players agree to assign strikes, Alatar MUST be assigned a strike because of his ability, and this supersedes any other effect. But they do not immediately face the strike. All of the strikes are assigned first and then the strikes are faced one at a time.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:58 pm
I've noticed that people want to ask whether or not the attack is cancelled. But as a general practice, you do not want to be answering this question because it doesn't make any difference on the game and you are free to change your mind if the opponent plays hazards. What matters is whether strikes have been assigned, because then it is too late for the resource player to cancel the attack and it is also too late for the hazard player to play cards that change the number of strikes (even if those cards have other effects, or even Doors of Night, etc).

Since the hazard player is the one who will be assigning strikes, they can ask "may I assign strikes?" and then you can say "No wait, I will use Alatar's ability." You could also just say this before the opponent asks.

Then, once the players agree to assign strikes, Alatar MUST be assigned a strike because of his ability, and this supersedes any other effect. But they do not immediately face the strike. All of the strikes are assigned first and then the strikes are faced one at a time.

Ok this is useful. So the key point of no return is the assigning of strikes. Once this is agreed (i.e. the defending player must also agree the strikes can be assigned - is isn't enough that he hasn't cancelled them - it is here that he can decided to bring in Alatar before the strikes are assigned not later, but then Alatar must be assigned a strike no matter what the hazard player wants or the hazard card says).

This also answers a question I had about the magic ring of stealth verses the ring of nature. The RoS cancels a strike against the bearer, the RoN cancels an attack against the bearers company I think. While the RoS seems a lot weaker at first, the advantage I guess of the RoS is that its effect can be applied after this watershed moment of assigning strikes. I could see how this might be useful on a fragile but important scout character - like Arwen or a hobbit. Alatar's ability comes in before strikes are assigned but he must be assigned a strike, even if the attack chooses defending characters.

I can also see why this is important for attack enhancer cards like 'dragon's blood' for example. As while I might choose to face an attack from a land-drake without dragon's blood, I might choose to cancel the attack once dragon's blood is applied.

I have doubts about meaning of "facing a strike".
If it means "being assigned a strike" then Dragon's Blood may be played on character assigned a strike before strike sequence.
Otherwise Dragon's Blood may be played only during strike sequence.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:40 am I have doubts about meaning of "facing a strike".
If it means "being assigned a strike" then Dragon's Blood may be played on character assigned a strike before strike sequence.
Otherwise Dragon's Blood may be played only during strike sequence.

Yes, looking at the text of dragons blood it specifically says it should be played after the strikes are assigned.

This makes it super powerful (and I already thought it was very powerful). So if my land-drake attack isn't cancelled against my opponent. I then assigned the strike to a weak character with a low body. At this point the attack cannot be cancelled but the strike can be cancelled (for example using a ring of stealth on the target of the strike). Then I play dragons blood, and the strike can be resolved (i.e. dice are rolled). A body check is made regardless if the strike is defeated. Deadly.

sarma72 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:50 pm Chris, your aside got me thinking that maybe we should compile a small document with MECCG in game etiquette and key questions. Like, "Does it resolve? Cancel? Shall I assign? etc etc"

Marc, if you are talking to me here - I agree, happy to help with this.

If a strike has been canceled, the strike did not fail, was not successful, nor ineffectual.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:55 am If a strike has been canceled, the strike did not fail, was not successful, nor ineffectual.

I understand this part ok - I guess this relates to MP mostly.

If there are two strikes (for example a light-drake), one is cancelled using a RoS and the other is defeated though, then are the MP gained for the hazard? Or is it a case of all strikes need to be defeated to get the MP?

Thinking of at home dragons etc here. I know cards like 'sated beast' reduce the number of strikes but the attack can still be defeated, however if a strike is cancelled by a Ring of Stealth after the strikes are assigned, then a second strike is defeated normally, my guess is the attack is not defeated so the MP are not gained and the hazard card is discarded?