Imprisoning: Controlled events vs Events on character

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Konrad Klar
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MEDM, Taking Prisoners wrote:When taken prisoner, a character cannot take any actions (including healing or
untapping) and cannot be affected by any cards except for those that specifically
affect characters taken prisoner. A character taken prisoner is not controlled (i.e., does
not use any influence), and all of his followers revert to general influence (which
must be legally reconciled during his player’s next organization phase). Any items,
allies, or events controlled by a character are discarded when the character is taken
prisoner unless the hazard host states otherwise.
As an exception, a ring borne by an
imprisoned character stays with the character.
Underline mine.

Some events seems obviously to be under control of character - Dreams of Lore, Rescue Prisoners.
But...
Is corruption card controlled by character? Is event like When I Know More controlled by character?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:51 amSome events seems obviously to be under control of character - Dreams of Lore, Rescue Prisoners.
Yes, I think it's even in the rules. METWU p. 10 and 11.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:51 amIs corruption card controlled by character? Is event like When I Know More controlled by character?
This reminds me of that flavor quote:
"If you move a character into Moria, your opponent could play a Troll card as a hazard. These hazards are not “controlled” by the Wizards, but rather they represent the forces of Sauron, who himself is in a “dormant” or hiding phase."

Anyway, the game uses the word "control" when a resource card is placed with a character. A follower-character, item, ally, and resource are "controlled" by a character. It doesn't normally use this term when referring to hazards. But in this context where the single verb "control" being applied to the list of entities that can be placed on or with a character, which includes both resources and hazards, then the term "control" covers hazards placed on or with the character (again, in this context).

But let's pretend that the hazard card is not "controlled" by the prisoner-character. It is still the case that all effects of that hazard are canceled (the effects do not affect the character/game). Hazard events are discarded if they are canceled. There's also the rules on cards leaving active play (prisoners have left active play). In such cases all cards on played on the card that left active play are discarded. Hazard events and any other card played on a character leaving active play are discarded (except the prisoner specific exception for a ring).

METWU p. 14: When a card is removed from play in all other cases, the card is discarded unless the card specifically states otherwise.

MEBA p. 4: When a card leaves active play (discarded, eliminated, returned to hand, etc.). discard all cards played on it.

MEDM p. 3: Any items, allies, or events controlled by a character are discarded when the character is taken prisoner unless the hazard host states otherwise. As an exception, a ring born by an imprisoned character stays with the character.

There are 3 rules telling the player to discard a hazard event card or resource event card played on a character that is taken prisoner.
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Konrad Klar
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I do not think that off to the side cards leave active play.
They are not affected by game but not vice versa.

I think that stipulation in text of Great Secrets Buried There - "(item does not give Marshaling points and is considered out of play)." reflects this.
Without that, someone could use some palantir to duplicate effect other palantir placed with Great Secrets Buried There.

Uh...
No exception here. Item is considered out of play without exception. Even for purposes of uniqueness.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:08 am I do not think that off to the side cards leave active play.
They are not affected by game but not vice versa.
"Cards placed off to the side are placed on the playing surface
off to the side of the normal area of play.
" There is an area of the table for active play and "off to the side" cards are to the side of that area. They are not in the active play area -- they have left active play. See the diagram of the Play Area in the rules.
Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:08 amI think that stipulation in text of Great Secrets Buried There - "(item does not give Marshaling points and is considered out of play)." reflects this.
Without that, someone could use some palantir to duplicate effect other palantir placed with Great Secrets Buried There.
Even without this text in Great Secrets, a Palantir could not use the effects of a palantir that is "off to the side" because each of the palantiri with that capability require the other palantir to be in "play" and cards played "off to the side" are not "in" play -- they are "off to the side" of play.

The rules states "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness."
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CDavis7M
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Oh yeah -- I have this diagram.
MECCG Playing Surface.PNG
MECCG Playing Surface.PNG (42.24 KiB) Viewed 1684 times
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:06 pm The rules states "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness."
The rules also state that FW hero company is covert for the purposes of playing minion resources.

Does it mean that only for the purposes?
Does it face AA detainment against covert as normal.
Is Not Slay Needlessly interpreted as though such company was not covert?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:34 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:06 pm The rules states "Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness."
The rules also state that FW hero company is covert for the purposes of playing minion resources.

Does it mean that only for the purposes?
Does it face AA detainment against covert as normal.
Is Not Slay Needlessly interpreted as though such company was not covert?
The answer is simple and you already know it:

The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played. Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.

Is facing an automatic attack an act of playing a minion resource?
Is playing Not Slay Needlessly an act of playing a minion resource?

Also, if you think about it more, the automatic attack thing makes sense. A hero company is Wizard player's company, or a Fallen-wizard's company that has no Orcs or Trolls. An overt company is a company with Orcs and/or Trolls in it.. A Fallen-wizard's hero company will not usually facing attacks that are conditionally detainment based on covert status unless their fallen-wizard is Plotting Ruin, has been Cast from the Order, of their Heart has Grown Cold, which is not something done covertly. I don't think the Edoras guard would go easy on Dunlanders plotting their ruin.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:58 pm Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
Sacrifice of Form does not make exception for followers when it says: "Discard the Wizard (i.e., he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls. " .

Great Secrets Buried Here does not make exception when it says: "(item does not give Marshaling points and is considered out of play)." .
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:21 pmSacrifice of Form does not make exception for followers when it says: "Discard the Wizard (i.e., he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls. " .
Right... it does not.
Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:21 pmGreat Secrets Buried Here does not make exception when it says: "(item does not give Marshaling points and is considered out of play)."
Right... the card does not have an exception on it.

What's your point? If you are going to continue making statements at least give analysis, a conclusion, or something to discuss.
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Konrad Klar
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My point is expressing my view, or my doubts.

Either:

1. Cards off to the side are generally in play (and generally are not affected by game) and then "(item [...] is considered out of play)." makes sense.

2. Cards off to the side are generally in play only for purposes of uniqueness (and generally are not affected by game) and then "(item [...] is considered out of play)." is (again) either redundant or removes the item from play even for purposes of uniqueness (principle is that a text of a card may beat rule, not vice versa).

Beside palantirs other affected combos are Balrog of Moria, Lorien, Galadriel (off to the side), and Return of the King, Denethor II (off to the side).

For me this is hard to believe that ICE made an effort to treating item as not in play even for purposes of uniqueness. Rather the effort was to make references to the item in play invalid. I am for option (1).
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:27 amEither:

1. Cards off to the side are generally in play (and generally are not affected by game) and then "(item [...] is considered out of play)." makes sense.

2. Cards off to the side are generally in play only for purposes of uniqueness (and generally are not affected by game) and then "(item [...] is considered out of play)." is (again) either redundant or removes the item from play even for purposes of uniqueness (principle is that a text of a card may beat rule, not vice versa).
Sometimes I feel like you deliberately introduce confusion into a simple concept.

Cards "off to the side" are NOT "generally in play" as your two alternatives state. There's confusion because you just made stuff up instead of reading and comprehending the rules. The rules say "Cards placed off to the side are placed on the playing surface off to the side of the normal area of play." Since there's confusion lets go back to the fundamentals of reading comprehension -- each word has meaning. The word "off" has meaning. In this context it means "away from," "removed", or "separated." When the rules state that a card "off to the side" is placed "off to the side of the normal area of play" it means that such a card is away from the play area, removed from the play area, separated from the play area. The card is not in the play area so it is NOT IN PLAY.

While cards placed "off to the side" are not in play as discussed above, the rules state that they are "in play for the purposes of uniqueness." This rule is not redundant, as you questioned, because the card is out of play and so without this rule the card would be out of play for purposes of the Unique rule.

When the rules state that "Any card placed off to the side absolutely cannot be targeted or otherwise affected by the game except by cards that specifically affect cards placed 'off to the side.'" it is simply explaining how things not-in-play work for people that have never played a game before. Even without this rule it would still be the case that a card placed "off to the side" could NOT have any affect on the game and could be not targeted. This is just a fundamental concept in game design in general, beyond MECCG.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:27 am Beside palantirs other affected combos are Balrog of Moria, Lorien, Galadriel (off to the side), and Return of the King, Denethor II (off to the side).
It's very, very simple. If a character card is out of play when they are "off to the side" then it works exactly the same as when that character card has been eliminated and is out of play in the Out-of-Play Pile. Eliminated character cards in the Out-of-Play Pile are also considered for purposes of the Unique rule.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:27 am For me this is hard to believe that ICE made an effort to treating item as not in play even for purposes of uniqueness. Rather the effort was to make references to the item in play invalid. I am for option (1).
You're confused about how Great Secrets Buried There works because you are confused about how MECCG works because you don't understand fundamentals of game design.

For all games, a card outside of the play area is not in play. Some special rules might apply but this is true in general.

For MECCG, a card outside of the play area that is "off to the side" is out of play. However, it is in play for purposes of Uniqueness, but only for that purpose. If it isn't there it isn't there.

For Great Secrets Buried There, the item placed "off to the side" with Great Secrets "is considered out of play." This statement in the card text says the same thing as the Dark Minions rules. This statement in Great Secrets does NOT state that the item is considered out of play for ALL purposes nor does it state that the item is out of play for purposes of the Unique rule.

The card text of Great Secrets reiterates the "out of play" rules. It does NOT override the rule that "off to the side" cards are "in play for the purposes of uniqueness."
Craig Ichabod O'Brien Me:CCG Official Netrep wrote: From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: [METW] Confirmations and Reversals
Date: 1996/11/27

Okay, I just got a ton of email from ICE on questions I had passed on to
them for confirmation. Check em out y'all, and have a boss thanksgiving.

...

8 ) Cards off to the side under Great Secrets Buried There are in play
for uniqueness. So if your Durin's Axe is under GSBT, I cannot play
mine.
Of course.

I hope everyone had a boss Thanksgiving in '96 too.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:35 pm Sometimes I feel like you deliberately introduce confusion into a simple concept.
This may respect for point of view of others. Precisely presenting consequences of that or another interpretation, without using words like obviously, because what seems obvious and simple for me, may not be such for others.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:35 pm This rule is not redundant, as you questioned, because the card is out of play and so without this rule the card would be out of play for purposes of the Unique rule.
I have not questioned that. I have asked whether part of text of Great Secrets Buried Here (not rule) is redundant.
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CDavis7M
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It's not about "point of view." It's about reading the words in the rules. And in this case it wasn't about interpretation, there is no other interpretation of the words in this context.

Of course, ignoring certain words or their meaning can lead to misinterpretations.
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That is a great lead for what I was going to say.
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:35 pm The rules say "Cards placed off to the side are placed on the playing surface off to the side of the normal area of play." Since there's confusion lets go back to the fundamentals of reading comprehension -- each word has meaning. The word "off" has meaning. In this context it means "away from," "removed", or "separated." When the rules state that a card "off to the side" is placed "off to the side of the normal area of play" it means that such a card is away from the play area, removed from the play area, separated from the play area. The card is not in the play area so it is NOT IN PLAY.
It seems like you are ignoring the word "normal." If you look at the play area map, there is no place for cards placed off to the side. They cannot be affected by the game, except they can by cards that specifically mention cards placed off to the side, and they themselves can also still affect the game. Not only do such cards still count as being in play for purposes of uniqueness, they also still give their owners Marshalling Points. Those aspects reinforce that such a card is in play, at least to me.

There was an ICE netrep confirmation that a Wizard taken prisoner would lose Sacrifice of Form, so I believe that at least corroborates When I Know More.

I'm not sure about hazards. Seems likely they were meant to stick around, else why use controlled instead of played on?
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