Beginner questions

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
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CDavis7M
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DM_Eonwe wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:26 pm I don't know if something like the stack exists in Middle-earth CCG, but maybe I can use her ability directly after I tested a ring to be the One.
Since you asked about timing, MECCG uses "last in, first out" game timing called a "chain of effects", which might be similar to some "stack" concepts but I don't know if it is similar to "the stack" you are talking about. In MECCG, cards or effects can be declared in response to each other and then they all resolve in order and uninterrupted from last declared to first declared. Furthermore, the effects of a dice-roll are declared with (and resolved with) the dice roll itself.

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Declaring a "test" of a gold ring includes both the dice roll and the potential play of various special ring items depending on the dice roll. Playing a special ring is the actual (resolved) effect of the test. These actions are all declared together in the same chain of effects and then they will resolve together. Because of this timing, there is no way to declare Lobelia's retrieval-ability in the middle of an already resolving chain of effects. There is also no way to delay the resolution of playing the special ring item until a later chain of effects. The play of the special ring must happen, if at all, when the test resolves. If the resolved dice roll does not match a particular type of special ring, then play of the non-matching special ring is negated.

So, it's true that Lobelia cannot retrieve special ring items because such items are not "playable" at her site. But EVEN IF special ring items were playable at her site, she still could not use her ability to retrieve the special ring item after seeing the dice roll and then play the retrieved card as the tested ring -- the timing rules do not allow for this.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
meaglyn
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"first in, first out" is a queue and is not what meccg uses, as you state in a later sentence ("from last declared to first declared"). That's be "last in, first out" which is a stack. Probably a typo?
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CDavis7M
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meaglyn wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:17 pm "first in, first out" is a queue and is not what meccg uses, as you state in a later sentence ("from last declared to first declared"). That's be "last in, first out" which is a stack. Probably a typo?
Good catch. That was a mistake.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:17 pm If there is a declared Fallen-wizard, the corresponding hazard could not be played at all as it is not "Fallen" when that Wizard is already declared to be Fallen.
The corresponding hazard is not a hero Wizard, but a manifestation of a corresponding hero Wizard. Can you provide what restriction would apply to the hazard in addition to the restriction on the hero Wizard given in MEWH rules?
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:25 am
CDavis7M wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:17 pm If there is a declared Fallen-wizard, the corresponding hazard could not be played at all as it is not "Fallen" when that Wizard is already declared to be Fallen.
The corresponding hazard is not a hero Wizard, but a manifestation of a corresponding hero Wizard. Can you provide what restriction would apply to the hazard in addition to the restriction on the hero Wizard given in MEWH rules?
It's not a question of "hero wizard" or "manifestation," but a question of "fallen."

Look at the MEWH rules at "Declaring that your Wizard is Fallen" and the note below it. If you declare yourself as fallen-Gandalf, the rule itself does not prevent your your opponent from playing Hero Gandalf. As explained in the Note, "this [fallen wizard declaration] rule means" that hero Gandalf may not be played BECAUSE "that wizard has already fallen." Since that is what "declaring that your wizard is fallen" means, the declaration of Gandalf being fallen also means that the non-fallen Gandalf the White Rider cannot be played because Gandalf the White Rider has not fallen (obviously).

Maybe there will be a Dream Card hazard for fallen-Gandalf, which would still be playable in this case.

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Konrad Klar
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Declaring that you are playing Fallen Gandalf does not mean that Fallen Gandalf is in play.
"This rule means" what it says about what it means. Nothing else.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:14 am Declaring that you are playing Fallen Gandalf does not mean that Fallen Gandalf is in play.
"This rule means" what it says about what it means. Nothing else.
Of course fallen Gandalf is not in play simply by declaring him as fallen. But if Gandalf is fallen, then any non-fallen version may not come into play because Gandalf is fallen, not not-fallen.

That is what "declaring your wizard as fallen" means. The note to that rules says that is what that rule means. If the reason that hero Gandalf may not be played is because he is not fallen (as the rules state is the case), then that also mean that Gandalf The White Rider may not be played because he is not fallen.
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Konrad Klar
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Different versions of the same card have the same name.
Minion Bree - hero Bree, hero Gandalf - fallen Gandalf.
Lady of The Golden Wood is not version of Galadriel.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:17 pm If the reason that hero Gandalf may not be played is because he is not fallen (as the rules state is the case), then that also mean that Gandalf The White Rider may not be played because he is not fallen.
Ok, thanks for sharing. Like Konrad, I think that this restriction "isn't there". In terms of game mechanics, Gandalf the White Rider is not itself a Wizard, but (as it states) a manifestation of Gandalf. That could just as well be the Fallen-Wizard version of Gandalf as the Wizard version, since they are both named Gandalf.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:17 pm Gandalf the White Rider has not fallen (obviously).
If you have a house rule that Gandalf with White Wizard and Shadowfax automatically passes all corruption checks, that is your business.
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Konrad Klar
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I think that that was just mistaking a manifestation as a version.
Just that. Mistakes happens.
No need to involving house rules, or similar.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:28 amIn terms of game mechanics, Gandalf the White Rider is not itself a Wizard, but (as it states) a manifestation of Gandalf. That could just as well be the Fallen-Wizard version of Gandalf as the Wizard version, since they are both named Gandalf.
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:20 pm I think that that was just mistaking a manifestation as a version.
Just that. Mistakes happens.
No need to involving house rules, or similar.
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I see your point. But for me, it has nothing to do with manifestations and it doesn't matter that Gandalf the White Rider is not a wizard. What matters is that he corresponds to Gandalf who was declared as fallen.

If "Declaring That Your Wizard is Fallen" only meant that the hero character version cannot be played, then the rules would just say that. Why explain the meaning if that meaning could also be applied to existing cards? I just think that the decision to describe the meaning of the rule indicates that the rule must apply to other situations. The "meaning" should be applied where it fits.

Accordingly, if the rule "Declaring That Your Wizard is Fallen" means that when you declare that you are playing a specific Fallen Wizard, your opponent may not play the corresponding hero Wizard (i.e., that Wizard has already fallen),
then the rule "Declaring That Your Wizard is Fallen" also means that when you declare that you are playing a specific Fallen Wizard, your opponent may not play the corresponding hazard (i.e., that Wizard has already fallen).

Anyway, it's not a big deal as the hazards handle themselves. But my guess is that the "meaning" of the rule was given because ICE had plans that never materialized. Like an ally version or a non-"wizard" character version having mind.
DM_Eonwe
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As I understand agents, can only influence characters, allies, and factions of opponents that are already in play. That means for example the agents Wormtongue's abilities is quite uninteresting when I don't face an opponent with characters from Rohan. So he is maybe more a sideboard card. Or do I miss something from agents here now? Thanks!
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Konrad Klar
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DM_Eonwe wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:46 pm As I understand agents, can only influence characters, allies, and factions of opponents that are already in play. That means for example the agents Wormtongue's abilities is quite uninteresting when I don't face an opponent with characters from Rohan. So he is maybe more a sideboard card. Or do I miss something from agents here now? Thanks!
Right. Hazard agents cannot bring into play any resources or characters.
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CDavis7M
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DM_Eonwe wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:46 pm As I understand agents, can only influence characters, allies, and factions of opponents that are already in play. That means for example the agents Wormtongue's abilities is quite uninteresting when I don't face an opponent with characters from Rohan. So he is maybe more a sideboard card. Or do I miss something from agents here now? Thanks!
You are right. He is not great for a "general" agent hazard strategy. I think there are generally 3 agent strategies, well... 4. But I hesitate to call 4 a "strategy."
(1) Put in a lot of small mind agents to cover the entire board and capitalize on home site bonuses. You can also place agents in the sideboard, then sideboard 5 agents to your discard pile and retrieve them using Inner Cunning and Nobody's Friend.
(2) Put in a few high mind agents in the deck and rely on their strength. You can use cards to speed them up like Great Need or Purpose, Never Seen Him, and Inner Cunning. Maybe even all of these. I personally like To Get You Away. Good Sense Revolts is a decent card here because it covers factions, allies, and characters.
(3) Put in a few agents with the special on-tap abilities without any other agent-based hazards. You've got Anarin (attack companies moving to Havens), Baduila (return to origin), Golodhros (influence without a hazard), and The Grimburgoth (attack moving company). This strategy is the one to use against Minions since agent-based hazards cannot be used. I find agents to work fairly well against minion players.
(4) Put Baduila in every deck you own.

My Precious is also fun and can work in a lot of decks.
DM_Eonwe
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Thanks a lot for your replies. I guess I will refrain from using agents in my decks for the time since the decks should be easy accessable for beginners.
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