Council of Elrond

The Dragons: Here, There, or Yonder
U2 Resource: Short-event

Tap a character during his site phase at a tapped or untapped . Make a roll (or draw a #) modified by +3 if the character is a diplomat. An ally may be played and placed under the character's control if the result is greater than 6 plus the ally's mind stat and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site's region. If an ally is played, tap the site if it is not already tapped.

What actually taps the site - action from Here, There, or Yonder, or act of playing of an ally?

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:53 am
What actually taps the site - action from Here, There, or Yonder, or act of playing of an ally?

Or some action in ancient history. But if the site was untapped when HToY is played, which card causes the site to tap depends on whether play of the ally does not tap the site.

When does it matter?

In an act of playing an ally taps the site, then presumably the ally is considered played at the site. Ally's alignment cannot be opposite to alignment of the site. But Here, There, or Yonder may be played on character at site of any alignment.

If however the effect of Here, There, or Yonder is what taps a site, alignments of the ally and the site may be opposite. But the site cannot be minion.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:51 pm In an act of playing an ally taps the site, then presumably the ally is considered played at the site. Ally's alignment cannot be opposite to alignment of the site.

The rules state: "After an ally is played at a site, the site card is tapped." Playing an ally taps the site "(unless stated otherwise on the card)".

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:51 pm But Here, There, or Yonder may be played on character at site of any alignment.

This statement is just a conclusion. By the way, HToY is not played on a character. Anyway, the MEWH Rules state:

In order to play (A) a non-Fallen-wizard resource that would (B) normally tap a site, either the site and the resource to be played must both be hero cards or they must both be minion cards... This applies to all factions, allies, and items; (C) as well as other cards played during the site phase that tap the site.

I don't see how the rule does not apply to Here, There, or Yonder. It is a (A) non-fallen-wizard resource card (C) played during the site phase that (B) states "tap the site." Just because the tapping of the site by HToY is conditioned upon "if an ally is played" does not mean that the HToY resource card does not "normally tap a site." Conditions are not a factor in considering whether the resource would "normally tap a site." This is clear because Faction resources "normally tap a site" and they are conditioned upon a successful influence check dice roll. The only resources that do not "normally tap a site" are events that do not say "tap the site" or an allies/item/faction that "state otherwise on the card."

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:51 pm If however the effect of Here, There, or Yonder is what taps a site, alignments of the ally and the site may be opposite. But the site cannot be minion.

Well, reading the METW rules, it doesn't matter whether the resource actually taps the site or not. So even presuming that HToY can be played at a minion site and that HToY is the card that actually taps the site, you still could not play a hero ally that would "normally tap a site" at a minion site using HToY.

Set (and mundane) pieces of the game.

New Moon does not say that it is played on Elf character, merely "Tap one Elf character".
It does not need to say that it is played on Elf character.
The Elf character is concrete Elf character, is required and is not chosen as part of main effect of New Moon.
It is specified on declaration of New Moon.
So it is a target of New Moon.

Here, There, or Yonder taps a character specified at declaration of the card Here, There, or Yonder.

I know that someone may understand "target", or "entity on which a card is played" differently.
I will not polemize with that or other understanding of the terms in this thread.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:12 am New Moon does not say that it is played on Elf character, merely "Tap one Elf character".
It does not need to say that it is played on Elf character.

Yes, it does not need to say "playable on an elf character"...

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:12 am The Elf character is concrete Elf character, is required and is not chosen as part of main effect of New Moon.
It is specified on declaration of New Moon.
So it is a target of New Moon.

Your use of the phrase "main effect" here is misguided. I would not even bother but you have used this phrase weirdly other times. The expression "main effect" is only used in the CRF and it is only used when describing tapping and discarding as active conditions. New Moon does not involve tapping or discarding active conditions and so there is no need to describe the "main effect" of New Moon.

The use of "main effect" here is especially confusing because your statement is wrong. The elf character actually IS chosen as part of the "main effect" of New Moon. The main effect being the tapping of the elf; the elf being chosen/targeted at declaration of that tapping main effect.

But since with New Moon we are not talking about tapping/discarding as active conditions, then there is no point in discussing the "main effect." The tapping is just an "effect" of New Moon.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:12 am The Elf character is concrete Elf character, is required and is not chosen as part of main effect of New Moon.
It is specified on declaration of New Moon.
So it is a target of New Moon.

Let's be definite. There is no such thing as "a target of New Moon" the card. It is just a card. A card has no target. The action of playing the card can have a target. Effects can have targets. A card as a card has no targets.

New Moon does not state "playable on" and so there is no target for the action of playing New Moon. The elf being tapped is the target of the tapping effect of New Moon. We know that it is the target because there is a choice of a specific entity to be tapped. And since it is a target, then yes, it is determined at declaration of the tapping effect per the rules on Active Conditions.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:12 am Here, There, or Yonder taps a character specified at declaration of the card Here, There, or Yonder.

It sure does. In this case, tapping is an active condition for the dice roll effect of Here, There, or Yonder. However, HToY is definitely not "played on character" as mentioned in the earlier post.

And now we have an opporunity to discuss the "main effect." Obviously tapping is not the main effect. Rolling the dice and possibly playing an ally are the main effects.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:12 am I know that someone may understand "target", or "entity on which a card is played" differently.

I should hope so because when a first card is "played on" a second card, the action of playing the first card targets the second card. However, not all targeting occurs by playing cards on other cards. Targeting of effects often occurs without cards being "played on" other cards, like New Moon.