Helm of her Secrecy

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TomG
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In reading some of the posts, I am unclear as to the answer to the following questions:

1) Can you play multiple copies of Helm of her Secrecy if you have them and Eowyn in your hand?

2) Can you play Helm of her Secrecy when facing a Nazgul auto attack?
Thanks
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Konrad Klar
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TomG wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:36 pm 1) Can you play multiple copies of Helm of her Secrecy if you have them and Eowyn in your hand?
Yes.
TomG wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:36 pm 2) Can you play Helm of her Secrecy when facing a Nazgul auto attack?
Yes.
This assumes that resources that can be played only if an attack of given type is faced count as the resources that that directly affect the attack.

viewtopic.php?f=103&t=3450
When facing an automatic-attack, you may play resources that directly affect the attack or would otherwise be playable during the strike sequence.
The same applies for facing attacks created by cards with multiple actions.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
TomG
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Great! Thank you. I was hoping that would be the answers😀
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CDavis7M
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Well, when the first Helm of Her Secrecy resolves, it has no target for the prowess bonuses etc. This is because of the rule: "The effects of a resource permanent-event are immediately implemented." In which case, the bonuses don't resolve, Eowyn is not played, nothing has happened. In which case, the card was played for no effect. So then it can't be played per "Legal Play of Cards"

Even if Eowyn were played later, she would not get the bonuses of the cards that resolved before she was in play.
TomG
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And hence the confusion/debate...
But CDavis7M, the card states "If Eowyn is in your hand, this card is playable...".
Here's my view: The condition for playing the card is that Ewoyn is "in your hand", and the company "is facing an attack".
The card does not expressly state that it cannot be duplicated. As a Permanent Event, it is played on the table so long as the condition is satisfied (ie that Ewoyn is in player's hand and company is facing an attack). If a player has 3 copies, all could be played as long as Ewoyn remains in the player's hand until 3rd Helm has been played. Once all are played, Ewoyn appears. The Permanent Effect is "permanent" and applies to Ewoyn immediately "when she appears" as part of that attack sequence. Thus the effects of all 3 Helm's are immediately applied. Because the card does not state that it cannot be duplicated, she benefits from the cumulative effects, and if the attack faced was a Nazgul, the bonuses are permanent.
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CDavis7M
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That is not how permanent events work. A common misconception. That misconception goes against the explicit rules on playing permanent events - the effects are implemented immediately. The bonuses are resolved before the card is placed (which is after the attack). The bonuses listed on the card are just reminders of the card text.

Annotation 24: If a card specifies that more than one action occurs when the card itself is resolved in a chain of effects, all of these actions are to be resolved in the card's chain of effects uninterrupted and in the order listed on the card.

"She gains +2 prowess" is an action and it is implemented when Helm resolves, before Helm is placed after the attack. If Eowyn is not there when Helm resolves in the chain of effects, there is no "she" to gain +2 prowess. I'm which case, the card has no effect on gameplay and is illegal. All that "permanent" means is that the +2 prowess lasts until Helm is discarded.

"The effects of a resource permanent-event are immediately implemented. Its effects last until the card is discarded."

If the prowess were given after Helm were placed, then multiple copies would work.

The card doesn't need to say Cannot be Duplicated because it's not possible to duplicate it.
TomG
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But how can "She gains +2 prowess" occur before Helm is placed?? The card expressly states that IF Ewoyn is in your hand, then the card is playable ON A COMPANY facing an attack. It's not technically played on Ewoyn, because she's not yet revealed.
This card could definitely benefit from an annual Rules vote 😉
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CDavis7M
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TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:37 am But how can "She gains +2 prowess" occur before Helm is placed??
huh? The card is played on the company, then Eowyn is played, then she receives the bonuses, then Helm is possibly placed on her after the attack.
The +2 prowess occurs before the card is placed and it occurs even if the card is never placed.
TomG
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Hmmm. This is interesting.
But isn't it the case that there is nothing on the card or in the rules precluding 3 Helm's from being played on the Company?
And if so, doesn't the card effect only "resolve" when Ewoyn is played? In other words, the effect (of the permanent event bonuses) only activates once Ewoyn is played (otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have bonuses "hanging" with no character to whom they attach). So, if there is enough influence to control Ewoyn, she can be played with the company on whom 3 Helm's were previously played in the same turn. At that point, there are 3 Helm's which would resolve and "attach" to Ewoyn. The effect of the already 3 played Helm's is immediate, but concurrent-- and they all target the same character.

Is there going to be a 2020 Annual Rules vote I wonder?
TomG
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The CRF states: "You can play multiple Helms of Her Secrecy in one chain of effects". I hadn't checked the CRF earlier....
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CDavis7M
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TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:26 am The CRF states: "You can play multiple Helms of Her Secrecy in one chain of effects". I hadn't checked the CRF earlier....
Yes. It's wrong. The Netreps first said no, you can't play multiple. Then someone brought up not playing Eowyn until the last one resolves, and the Netrep said OK you can. But they never considered that the +2 prowess does not resolve. And it was never addressed again.
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CDavis7M
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I'll explain in detail why multiple Helm of Herr Secrecy cannot be played following the rules and describing the timing and conditions.
RULES wrote:(MELE p. 87) Action: Any activity in the game (card play, a corruption check caused by Lure of the Senses, etc.). Each action is not immediately resolved when it is declared. An opponent and yourself have the opportunity to declare other actions in response. Meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck are not actions--they are declared and resolve immediately.
(MELE p. 88) Chain of Effects: A series of actions declared in response to one another before any of them resolve. Actions in a chain of effects are resolved in the reverse order from which they were declared (last in. first out).
(MELE p. 88) Declaring an Action: Stating that an action is being played, though the actual effects of the action are not implemented until both players have had the chance to respond with the declaration of other actions. Each time you play a card, you are declaring an action.
(MELE p. 90) Resolving an Action: Carrying out the actual effect on the game of an action. Multiple actions are resolved in a chain of effects in the opposite order they are declared.

(MELE p. 40) 10 · PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS
EVENTS
There are both resource events and hazard events. Each event falls into one of three classifications based upon how long it stays in play.
Permanent-event - The effects of a resource permanent-event are immediately implemented. Its effects last until the card is discarded. Certain effects can cause a permanent-event to be discarded: these effects are given in the text of specific cards.

(MELE p. 50)ACTIONS AND CARD PLAY
The various activities that you and your opponent can perform during play are called actions.
If the play of a card requires other actions (e.g., corruption checks), the actions are resolved in the order in which they appear on the card.

(MELE Companion / CRF) Annotation 24: If a card specifies that more than one action occurs when the card itself is resolved in a chain of effects, all of these actions are to be resolved in the card's chain of effects uninterrupted and in the order listed on the card.

(MELE p. 69)TIMING RULES
A series of declared actions is called a chain of effects. You always have the option of declaring the first action in a chain of effects during your turn. The actions in a chain of effects are resolved one at a time from last declared to first declared (i.e., the last declared action is resolved first, then the second to the last, etc.).
An action in a chain of effects is negated if the conditions required to perform it are negated by another action that is resolved before it in the chain of effects.

So then, what are the actions that occur as a result of playing Helm of Her Secrecy? And what are the conditions for implementing those actions?
  • Card Text 1: "If Éowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned)--the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site."
    • Action 1: Move the Helm of Her Secrecy resource permanent-event card from your hand to the play area for your company.
    • Target 1: A company.
    • Condition 1a: It is your turn
    • Condition 1b: Helm of Her Secrecy is in your hand.
    • Condition 1c: The Éowyn character card is in your hand.
    • Condition 1d: The targeted company is facing an attack
    • Condition 1e: Strikes of the attack have not been assigned
    • Condition 1f: The company contains a character with Edoras as a home site
  • Card Text 2: "If enough influence is available to control her, Éowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company."
    • Action 2: Move the Éowyn character card from your hand to the play area for the company.
    • Condition 2a: There is an Éowyn character card in your hand.
    • Condition 2b: There is a play area for the company.
    • Condition 2c: You have at least 2 unused General Influence or a character in the company has at least 2 unused Direct Influence to control Éowyn's 2 mind.
  • Card Text 3: "She gains +2 prowess"
    • Action 3: The prowess attribute value of the Éowyn character card is increased by 2.
    • Condition 3a: There is a prowess attribute value of an Éowyn character card. YOU CANNOT INCREASE A VALUE THAT DOES NOT EXIST

  • Card Text 4: "She gains ... +1 body"
    • Action 4: The body attribute value of the Éowyn character card is increased by 1.
    • Condition 4a: There is a body attribute value of an Éowyn character card.
  • Card Text 5: "She gains ... +1 Direct Influence."
    • Action 5: The direct influence attribute value of the Éowyn character card is increased by 1.
    • Condition 5a: There is a direct influence value of an Éowyn character card.
  • Card Text 6: "If the attack is a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack."
    • Action 6: Create an effect triggerable by a passive condition
    • Passive Condition: The attack (which target company is facing) resolves and it is a Nazgûl attack.
    • Triggered Action: Move the Helm of Her Secrecy resource event from the company's play area under the Éowyn character card.
  • Card Text 7: "Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Éowyn remains in play."
    • Action 7: Create an effect triggerable by a passive condition
    • Passive Condition: The attack (which target company is facing) resolves and it is not a Nazgûl attack.
    • Triggered Action: Move the Helm of Her Secrecy resource event from the company's play area to the discard pile.
  • Card Text 8: "Regardless, Éowyn remains in play."
    • Action: There is no action. This is a note to the player.
These actions are all resolved in order as explained above. If there is no prowess attribute of an Eowyn card because Eowyn is not in play, then the action of increasing that prowess attribute by +2 does not happen. There is no mechanism for causing this action to happen at some other point. Actions MUST be declared and resolved in a chain of effect. If the chain of effects for Helm of Her Secrecy has resolved and Eowyn is not played, then the action does not happen and will never happen.

The CRF entry is wrong because the Netreps only considered the conditions for Action 1, the action of playing Helm of Her Secrecy. The Netrep did not consider any of the other conditions for the other actions 2-7 caused by the play of Helm of Her Secrecy.
From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [METW] Q about Helm of Her Secrecy
Date: 1996/11/19

> Can I play 3 copies of 'Helm of Her Secrecy' on Eowyn?
> (Assume that I have 3 copies on hand)
> This card has not text like 'cannot be duplicated'.

No. Eowyn must be in your hand when Helm of Her Secrecy starts to resolve.
From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: MEDM: Q:To Get You Away
Date: 1996/11/22

> Btw... some Under-deeps site has special attack: If any Nazgul
> permanent-event is in play, one must be used as an additional
> automatic-attack.
>
> I believe that 'any Nazgul' includs the one I played.
> So I can play Nazgul myself, and face the Nazgul attack for the
> purpose of play 3 copies of 'Helm of Her Secrecy'?

You can do this to play one Helm of Her Secrecy, but not three (see above).
Any Nazgul does include one you have played, but you will not gain the
Marshalling points for a Nazgul you have played.

------ "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" ------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod
ich...@cstone.net Me:CCG Official Netrep
Founder "Team Ichabod" Undefeated on the Pro-Tour
-----Self Proclaimed Most Mediocre Player in the World-----
From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [METW] Q about Helm of Her Secrecy
Date: 1996/11/20

>Trevor "Isildur" Stone (tst...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>: In article <56pne3$7...@netnews.ntu.edu.tw>, Clat
<cl...@haydn.ntu.edu.tw> wrote:
>: >
>: > Can I play 3 copies of 'Helm of Her Secrecy' on Eowyn?
>: > (Assume that I have 3 copies on hand)
>: > This card has not text like 'cannot be duplicated'.
>: >
>: No. It says "If an Eowyn is in your hand..." so unless she can go back to
>: your hand AND keep her earlier helm, she can only surprise everybody once.
>
> But the only requirement stated is 'If Eowyn is in your hand'.
>Therefore I should be able to play 3 copies of HoHS at the same
>time before Eowyn joins my company. (i.e. leaving my hand)
>
> While resolving the HoHS, it doesn't require that 'you must
>play Eowyn'. It simply offers a chance to play Eowyn while facing
>an attack. Why can't I duplicate the offer
?
>
> Finally, if the attack is a Nazgul-attack, this satifies
>all the 3 HoHS and they should all be placed with Eowyn following
>the attack.
>
> I still can't understand the reason why I cannot play 3 HoHS.
>Please correct me, if I was wrong. Thanks again.

Mike, I said no to this question thinking Eowyn needed to be in your hand
when Helm of Her Secrecy resolved. However, I cannot find a ruling to
confirm this. Am I wrong? If I'm right, I need to know why, because
otherwise this guy'll never agree with me. As far as I can tell, Eowyn
in this case is neither a target or a condition.
[[note that the Netrep iaccidentally sent an email to the Designer Mike Reynolds to the list instead of to Mike]]
From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: Re: [METW] Q about Helm of Her Secrecy
Date: 1996/11/22
Message-ID: <ichabod-2211962344130001@dialin78.cstone.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 198209218
references: <56pne3$7qe@netnews.ntu.edu.tw> <56qlbg$3nl@lace.colorado.edu> <56rehm$ri3@netnews.ntu.edu.tw> <ichabod-2011962250210001@dialin67.cstone.net> <574sgb$b6t@lace.colorado.edu>
organization: The Game Cave
newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc




In article <574sgb$b...@lace.colorado.edu>, tst...@ucsub.Colorado.EDU
(Trevor "Isildur" Stone) wrote:


>In article <ichabod-2011...@dialin67.cstone.net>,
>Ichabod <ich...@cstone.net> wrote:
>>Mike, I said no to this question thinking Eowyn needed to be in your hand
>>when Helm of Her Secrecy resolved. However, I cannot find a ruling to
>>confirm this. Am I wrong? If I'm right, I need to know why, because
>>otherwise this guy'll never agree with me. As far as I can tell, Eowyn
>>in this case is neither a target or a condition.
>>
>It doesn't need a ruling. It says "If Eowyn is in your hand..." So once one
>has resolved, taking her out of your hand and onto the playing surface, the
>others can't do their thing.

a) this was sposed to be emailed not posted, my bad.

b) Obviously, but the rules don't support this. When asked why, I can't
say because it obvious (even if it is), I need to quote the rules. I
suppose I could say, "because I said so," but that sounds silly.
From: ich...@cstone.net (Ichabod)
Subject: [METW] Mallorn and Helm of Her Secrecy
Date: 1996/12/03

I was wrong about Helm of Her Secrecy. I was right that
playing it requires Eowyn to be in your hand as an active condition.
However, it is optional to bring her into play. Therefore you can
wait until the third HoHS resolves to play her, and all three HoHS's
will stick around.
This is true. You can "play" 3 Helm of Her Secrecy, but not all 3 will have effect on the game. Only 1 will. The prowess/body/DI bonuses of the other 2 copies will not resolve if Eowyn is not in play.

The bottom line is that while you can perform the action of playing Helm 3 times, if there's no Eowyn in play, there is no prowess, body, or direct influence attribute of Eowyn to receive the bonuses -- so they do not happen. Permanent-events do not have prowess/body/direct influence attributes like character cards do. These are just reminders for emphasis: "Clarification: For emphasis, a value used during play is often provided
both in a card's text and in another place on the same card. For example, a character's corruption check modifier is stated both in the text and the lower right corner of the character's card.
"
Last edited by CDavis7M on Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CDavis7M
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TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am Is there going to be a 2020 Annual Rules vote I wonder?
Hopefully not. The 2018 vote merely caused confusion in an effect to "fix" problems that were already solved in 1999, and it also created new rules that are inconsistent with the existing rules. There is nothing in the 2019 vote that is not already covered by the rules or the rulings. Many of the proposals and discussions do not bother to quote the rules or card text. No wonder there's confusion. Time would be better spent reading the card text and the rules.
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CDavis7M
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TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am But isn't it the case that there is nothing on the card or in the rules precluding 3 Helm's from being played on the Company?
There are rules precluding this. We are discussing playing cards. There is an entire section dedicated to playing cards called "PLAYING AND DRAWING CARDS." The first paragraph of this section states "A card cannot be played for no effect." This is expanded upon in LEGAL PLAY OF CARDS:
Legal Play of Cards: A player may not play a card just to discard it (i.e. just get it out of his or her hand). Specifically, a card may only be played if it meets at least one of the following criteria:
1) The: card must have an immediate effect on the game.
2) The card is a long-event. Long-events can always be played. even if ultimately they will not affect play.
3) The card has a potential effect on play that could be triggered later. Most permanent-events fall into this category. Only those that are playable on or with a certain entity are restrictive.
Playing Helm of Her Secrecy does not meet any of these requirements.

(1) Helm of Her Secrecy would not have any immediate effect on the game because Eowyn is not played. None of the other actions on HoHS cause any immediate effect when HOHS is resolved.
(2) Helm of Her Secrecy is not a long-event.
(3) There is no potential effect on play that could be triggered later. Merely moving a card from the company to Eowyn has no "effect on play." Moving the card does not give Eowyn the bonuses, that time has passed and the bonuses never happened. Therefore, this is merely getting Helm of Her Secrecy out of your hand for no effect.

Playing Multiple Helms of Her Secrecy is not a Legal Play of Cards.
TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am And if so, doesn't the card effect only "resolve" when Ewoyn is played?
No. This is not how the chain of effects works. Go read Section 10, especially ACTIONS AND CARD PLAY and TIMING RULES. Playing Eowyn is merely 1 action within resolution of HoHS.
TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am In other words, the effect (of the permanent event bonuses) only activates once Ewoyn is played (otherwise it wouldn't make sense to have bonuses "hanging" with no character to whom they attach).
There is no rule or card text supporting this assertion. I have explained how it works above. There are no bonuses "hanging" around. The symbols on Helm of Her Secrecy are merely reminders. Event cards do not have attributes. It is only the card text that matters -- and the card text doesn't work for multiple HoHS.
TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am So, if there is enough influence to control Ewoyn, she can be played with the company on whom 3 Helm's were previously played in the same turn.
3 HOHS could be declared but the first 2 would be returned to your hand if Eowyn was not played because that is not a Legal Play of Cards.
TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am At that point, there are 3 Helm's which would resolve and "attach" to Ewoyn.
You are misunderstanding how "resolve" is used in this game and how actions giving attribute bonuses work. The rules on items work differently. If Helm of Her Secrecy were an Item then it would work this way. But it is an event, not an item.
TomG wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:22 am The effect of the already 3 played Helm's is immediate, but concurrent-- and they all target the same character.
It obviously can't be "immediate" if, as you assert, the bonuses don't apply until after the attack.
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Konrad Klar
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Immediate effects of Helm of her Secrecy are that player can play Éowyn in target company if enough influence is available, and that the card is then placed on Éowyn.

"She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 DI" is duplication in text of card of values printed on left bottom corner and left side of the card.

Otherwise Éowyn would receive cumulative +4 prowess, +2 body, +2 DI".
Lidless Eye wrote:Clarification: For emphasis, a value used during play is often provided both in a card's text and in another place on the
same card. For example, a character's corruption check modifier is stated both in the text and the lower right corner of
the character's card.
For emphasis, if not for confusion.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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