Helm of her Secrecy

[TomG]

I thought I would check the "Middle-Earth:The Dragons Player Guide" published in 1997 by I.C.E..
On p.45 in describing HohS, it expressly states: "Note that it can be duplicated against one attack." As this was the definitive guide on card playability by the very makers of MECCG, I am prepared to follow it. It makes no sense to put in print that it can be duplicated, yet Ewoyn cannot obtain the cumulative bonuses.

[CDavis7M]

Thank you for actually bothering to read, because most people can't be bothered. But this is the same information we have been discussing. This book was written by Craig Ichabod O'Brien, who is the same guy that wrote the ruling I quoted above, and the same guy that wrote to CRF. This is a restatement of his same wrong ruling -- it's not new information.

Helm of Her secrecy can technically be Duplicated because (A) it doesn't say Cannot Be Duplicated and (B) the conditions for playing Helm multiple times can be met.

The problem is that if you do this, Eowyn is not in play to receive her bonuses. Meaning that it was not a Legal Play. Neither of these issue were discussed by Ichabod.

It's also worth nothing that the rules on Legal Play of Cards came from the Tournament Rules, which were after The Dragons. So this ruling from before Legal Play of Cards was not considering the points I made above.

Unfortunately you can not solely rely on the Players Guides because the rules sometimes changed. Usually Ichabod and the Players Guide are correct, but not in this case.

Botton line: the Rules on Events don't allow Eowyn to receive the bonuses if she was not in play when Helm of Her Secrecy Resolves. And the rules on Legal Play of Cards don't allow you to play a card without an effect.

[CDavis7M]

As this was the definitive guide on card playability by the very makers of MECCG, I am prepared to follow it. It makes no sense to put in print that it can be duplicated, yet Ewoyn cannot obtain the cumulative bonuses.

By the way, don't follow the ruling on More Sense Than You on pg 13. Because that's another wrong ruling not based on the rules. However, unlike Helm of Her Secrecy,that ruling was reconsidered and overturned.

[CDavis7M]

As this was the definitive guide on card playability by the very makers of MECCG

Oh, and if you couldn't tell, The Dragons Players Guide is certainly not the "definitive guide". And it was not written by "the very makers of MECCG."

And definitely don't rely on the METW PG or the MELE PG either, because those also have wrong rulings.

Unfortunately players need to understand the rules and recognize the changes to the rules.

Think about it: If the Designers actually intended to allow playing multiple Helm of Her Secrecy cards, why would they require the player to declare these cards in the same chain of effects in response to each other? It makes no sense. No other card is designed to work this way and no other effects needs to work this way besides those that target dice-rolls, which have their own special timing rules.

If the player is going to rely on a rule as inconsequential as "you may follow one of your declared actions with another of your declared actions in the same chain of effects" then they surely should follow the fundamental rule of "the effects of a resource permanent-event are immediately implemented"

[TomG]

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

[Beezertheturnip]

Sorry to threadjack, and if it's a problem I'll break this off and make a separate thread, but I had a question of my own on the Helm of Her Secrecy card. If there's a company to company combat with a minion company, my understanding is that you can play it if the minion company attacks the hero company (because now the hero company is facing an attack) but not the reverse (because now the hero company is not facing an attack, it is the attack). Is this interpretation correct?

Furthermore, if the minion attacking company contains a ringwraith character, would Helm of Her Secrecy persist after the attack, or is there a difference between a strike from a ringwraith character vs a strike from a ringwraith hazard or auto-attack?

[CDavis7M]

is there a difference between a strike from a ringwraith character vs a strike from a ringwraith hazard or auto-attack?

Helm of Her Secrecy says "if the attack is a Nazgul." The word "Nazgul" and the word "Ringwraith" are different words and there is no rule equating them except for purposes of the woman combat bonuses:
Characters with combat bonuses against Nazgûl also get those bonuses against Ringwraiths. However, other effects that affect Nazgûl do not affect Ringwraiths. (CRF, Ringwraiths)

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If there's a company to company combat with a minion company, my understanding is that you can play it if the minion company attacks the hero company (because now the hero company is facing an attack) but not the reverse (because now the hero company is not facing an attack, it is the attack). Is this interpretation correct?

The rules on Company vs Company Combat (CvCC) state that "you can cancel an attack from a company just like you would cancel any other attack" and they allow for the play of resources at Step 6 of the CvCC Strike Sequence: "6) The defending player may play resource cards that affect the strike (up to one card that requires skill). Note: Even though it is not his turn, the defending player may play resource cards that affect the resolution of strikes."

Besides these rules, the CRF states that "only the defender is considered to be facing an attack" (CRF, CvCC) and that "the defender may take actions that affect the attack or any of the strikes" (CRF, CvCC).

There is no rule that allows Helm of Her Secrecy to be played during CvCC. It does not cancel the attack and it does not affect the attack (ie the attack's prowess, the attack's strikes, or any other attribute of the attack). While Helm's prowess bonus would affect Eowyn's strikes, it would have to be played at Step 6 of the CvCC Strike Sequence as "all of the factors affecting a strike must be decided during the strike sequence" (MELE, Combat), but Eowyn is not yet in play let alone assigned a strike.

The Strike Sequence is actually pretty important. That's why it exists at all. But most players I've seen (and on here) tend to ignore it.

[Beezertheturnip]

Very clear and concise. Thank you for laying it out so sharply. I have to admit, in my own case, it's hard to get the rules to really "stick" in absence of people to play against. I mostly just read things and theorycraft, you know?

[CDavis7M]

I get it. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Most things don't matter when both players play the same way. The rules are too long and spread out to really be able to check on something in the middle of the game unless you already know where it is. I'd just play first, remember your questions, and look it up or ask later.

If you are looking for people to play against, check out the website https://cardnum.net/.