Playing a card with Crown of Flowers that targets a character

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panotxa
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Hi,

Can I play a card like Fireworks, that targets a character, with a Crown of Flowers?

Fireworks:
Ritual. Playable on an untapped sage at a tapped Border‐hold or Free‐hold except Wellinghall. Tap sage. Make a roll (draw
a #) and add the mind of the sage (+10 if a Wizard)‐if the result is greater than 12, the site untaps. The next time the sage would otherwise become untapped, make him tapped instead and discard this card.
Crown of Flowers:
Environment. Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it. You can play one resource from your hand with this card. The resource is considered to be played and to be in play as though Gates of Morning were in play and Doors of Night were not. Crown of Flowers does not affect the interpretation of any card except the resource played with it. Discard Crown of Flowers when the resource is discarded. Discard the resource if Crown of Flowers is discarded.
The wording of CoF “play [...] with this card” makes me think that I can play Fireworks on the sage attaching the already played Crown of Flowers... but... who knows!

Thanks,

Toni
Last edited by panotxa on Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Konrad Klar
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panotxa wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:16 am Can I play a card like Fireworks, that targets a character, with a Crown of Flowers?
As long the card is a resource, you can.
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CDavis7M
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Not sure why you would want to do that... unless to bypass Fireworks own discarding effect by Twilighting CoF early. Nice try. But Crown of Flowers says "Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it. You can play one resource from your hand with this card."

Crown of Flowers is played separate from a character. Crown of Flowers would be played in your play area or in the neutral zone before the other resource can be played with it. At that point, the character would be at a site, in a company. When you play Fireworks it is "Playable on an untapped sage." That is your only choice, it is played with the character. For Crown of Flowers, the resource played "with" it would be with it when that resource resolves. But Fireworks is on a character when it resolves. You cannot somehow play Fireworks both on a character and with CoF because those cards are distinct and separate. Cards that would work like that will instead say something like "place this card with some other card when that other card comes into play."

The idea is that some non-targeted long or permanent event would be played "with" Crown of Flowers since "The resource is considered to be in play as though Gates of Morning were in play and Doors of Night were not."

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Konrad Klar
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Target of the resource in question and/or a place on play surface where the target is ultimately placed do not matter.
Crown of Flowers does not check for them.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:23 pm Target of the resource in question and/or a place on play surface where the target is ultimately placed do not matter.
Crown of Flowers does not check for them.
I never said Crown of Flowers "checks" for the target of the other card.

My response above stands. The other card played "with" Crown of Flowers must actually be played "with" Crown of Flowers and Fireworks can never be played with Crown of Flowers because the normal playability conditions of Fireworks still must be met. It must be played on a character, and so it can never be played with Crown of Flowers.
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Konrad Klar
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Above does not make a sense.

Initially Crown of Flowers must be placed somewhere on play surface. Its placement does not restrict a destination placement of card played with Crown of Flowers.

You are developing new problems instead resolving existing problems. On the one case basis (that does not prove anything).
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CDavis7M
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There is no need to pretend that Fireworks not working with CoF is a problem. Crown of Flowers is intended to be played with a non-targeting long and permanent events that rely on Gates of Morning. Non-targeting meaning that the card is not "playable on" another entity (playing a card on an entity is targeting that entity). This is why playing a targeted event like Fireworks is incompatible with the wording "You can play one resource from your hand with this card" on CoF.

If Crown of Flowers were intended to be usable with targeted effects, it would have said "place Crown of Flowers with the resource" instead of "play one resource with Crown of Flowers." There is nothing allowing the player to pick Crown of Flowers up and place it with Fireworks. Therefore, Fireworks can never be "the resource" referenced by CoF.

It's pretty simple. You with play the resource with Crown of Flowers or you don't. If you play Fireworks with a character, it's not played with CoF.
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Konrad Klar
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Above still does not make a sense.

Whether a resource in question has target or not, is short-event or not, it still must be played.
There are no restrictions imposed on the resource by text of Crown of Flowers, suggested by you.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:17 pm It's pretty simple.
You are blind or you are liar.
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CDavis7M
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🤦‍♂️
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Konrad Klar
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Years ago I have read at meccg.net argument that there is no difference between removing a card from play and removing a card from game, just because there is no area on table dedicated for placing the cards removed from game.

Fortunately there is material that disproves the statement - Strider, Ant-FW Sideboard not included in Sideboard in game not against FW opponent.

You are postulating now an existence of "fixed card position" rule, such that a card cannot change its position on table, unless it is explicitly required or allowed by rules, or text of the card. Rule that prevents actions that would change position of the card.

This is like stating that because rules do not say about possibility of moving allies between companies, a character controlling an ally cannot join other company.
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Yangtze2000
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Hmm... I think I'm more with Konrad here. Fireworks is a Resource and that's the only condition imposed by Crown of Flowers. And there's nothing in the rules that says an Environment like Crown of Flowers cannot be played 'with' (or moved after play to) a character, though it wouldn't change it's game effect and would usually just be confusing, which is where CDavis7M's positional point comes in.

Also, different point, but to me the wording could be read such that it requires Crown of Flowers to be played at the same time as the Resource it is played with, rather than hanging around in the neutral zone waiting for a Resource to be played with it?

BTW there's no entry for 'Environment' in the Glossary of Terms of the original rules or in the URD, and I do think there should be.

However, I'm also with CDavis7M in that, because Fireworks is not an environment, in this case pairing it with Crown of Roses is a complete waste of time, since Gates of Morning and Doors of Night impact only Environments?
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Konrad Klar
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Yangtze2000 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 am Also, different point, but to me the wording could be read such that it requires Crown of Flowers to be played at the same time as the Resource it is played with, rather than hanging around in the neutral zone waiting for a Resource to be played with it?
Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it.
implies that it is initially hanging.
Yangtze2000 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 am However, I'm also with CDavis7M in that, because Fireworks is not an environment, in this case pairing it with Crown of Roses is a complete waste of time, since Gates of Morning and Doors of Night impact only Environments?
Aiglos is not environment but is affected by Doors of Night. The Sun Unveiled is not environment but may be played only if Gates of Morning is in play.

Some action may be perceived as wasteful, but they are legal anyway. Raising an argument that such action has no effect on game is cocksure act.
Someone may say that playing Fair Travels in Wilderness on company attempting movement to Under-deeps has no effect on game, but who can guarantee that the company will not take another M/H phase with path containing Wilderness?
Alliance of Free Peoples in FW vs. FW game may be perceived as wasteful but it prevents an opponent from playing his copy, thus prevents him from releasing from hand otherwise useless card.
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Yangtze2000
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:18 am
Yangtze2000 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 am Also, different point, but to me the wording could be read such that it requires Crown of Flowers to be played at the same time as the Resource it is played with, rather than hanging around in the neutral zone waiting for a Resource to be played with it?
Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it.
implies that it is initially hanging.
"Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it. implies that it is initially hanging." ... in your hand? I do think I agree with your interpretation, but it's not entirely clear.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:18 am
Yangtze2000 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 am However, I'm also with CDavis7M in that, because Fireworks is not an environment, in this case pairing it with Crown of Roses is a complete waste of time, since Gates of Morning and Doors of Night impact only Environments?
Aiglos is not environment but is affected by Doors of Night. The Sun Unveiled is not environment but may be played only if Gates of Morning is in play. Some action may be perceived as wasteful, but they are legal anyway. Raising an argument that such action has no effect on game is cocksure act.
But we're not talking about those cards. We're talking about Fireworks. And though I would agree with your wider point that the play is legal, I also agree with CDavis7M's view that, in this specific case, it is also pointless. This isn't an argument against its legality, it's an argument against its value.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:18 amSomeone may say that playing Fair Travels in Wilderness on company attempting movement to Under-deeps has no effect on game, but who can guarantee that the company will not take another M/H phase with path containing Wilderness?
Alliance of Free Peoples in FW vs. FW game may be perceived as wasteful but it prevents an opponent from playing his copy, thus prevents him from releasing from hand otherwise useless card.
I agree, but neither of those examples are relevant in this specific case. I can't see any circumstances in which this play wouldn't be pointless?
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Konrad Klar
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Yangtze2000 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:48 am Yangtze2000 wrote: ↑26 Jun 2020, 10:54
Also, different point, but to me the wording could be read such that it requires Crown of Flowers to be played at the same time as the Resource it is played with, rather than hanging around in the neutral zone waiting for a Resource to be played with it?
Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it.
implies that it is initially hanging.
"Crown of Flowers has no effect until you play a resource with it. implies that it is initially hanging." ... in your hand? I do think I agree with your interpretation, but it's not entirely clear.
You have said "rather than hanging around in the neutral zone waiting for a Resource to be played with it".

I says:
"it is initially hanging around in the neutral zone waiting for a Resource to be played with it"
after resolving, if it is not obvious.
Yangtze2000 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:48 am specific case, it is also pointless. This isn't an argument against its legality, it's an argument against its value.
This is argument for your pride. If considered as valid you can object against any legal action taken by your opponent unless your opponent will explain you a reason/benefit for taking the action.
My misunderstanding of goals/strategy of my opponent is my problem, not problem of my opponent.
Yangtze2000 wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:48 am I agree, but neither of those examples are relevant in this specific case. I can't see any circumstances in which this play wouldn't be pointless?
Se above.
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Yangtze2000
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:03 pm...if it is not obvious.
If it were obvious, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I call as witnesses 25 years' worth of MECCG errata and clarifications in my defense :lol:
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:03 pmThis is argument for your pride. If considered as valid you can object against any legal action taken by your opponent unless your opponent will explain you a reason/benefit for taking the action.

My misunderstanding of goals/strategy of my opponent is my problem, not problem of my opponent.
Well, first of all I'm not objecting to the play. I think it's legal.

I'm just suggesting there may be a (better) use for Crown of Flowers. And if you were playing a casual game with a relatively new player, would you point out something you felt to be a clear mistake in order to help them develop? If not, remind me to avoid you online until I'm a lot better at this game :)

Seriously though, perhaps the original poster can chime back in to tell us what his goals/ strategy are for this play? It's entirely possible there's something we've all missed. Either way, one or more of us will learn something valuable.
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