Or does the CRF mean that a Nazgul canceled by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped because Praise to Elbereth can target a declared Nazgul event that is not yet in play and a declared Nazgul may not be tapped? (Compared to Nazgul events canceled by Marvels Told and Wizard's River-horses that would necessarily already be in play, not just declared, as discarding actions can only target events in play)
Wizard's River-Horses, The Cock Crows, Marvels Told, Palantir of Osgiliath are some of the other resource cards that can stop Nazgul Events. However, these cards all say "discard" (i.e., move a card from play to the discard pile) instead of "cancel". Due to the last-in-first-out timing rules these cards cannot prevent a Nazgul event played during the movement/hazard phase. This is because the Nazgul Permanent Event would need to be resolved and in play in order to be targeted by the discarding effect (per Annotation 1) and once the Nazgul is in play, it can be tapped in response to the declaration of a discarding effect such that the tapped Nazgul event resolves before the discarding effect (although Witch King which becomes a Long Event not a Short Event like the others).Praise to Elbereth wrote:For each of your characters in play that you choose to tap, cancel one Nazgûl event or one Nazgûl attack. Additionally, if Doors of Night is in play, characters gain +1 prowess until the end of turn.
The superior Nazgul stopper is Praise to Elbereth. Unlike the other cards listed above, it says "cancel one Nagul event" for each tapped character. The METW cancellation effects can prevent declared effects (not yet in play) from resolving (see Rulings on Leaflock, Goldberry, Tom Bombadil, and Twilight in the METW Companion). Meaning that Praise to Elbereth can be played in response to cancel a declared Nazgul Permanent Event that has not resolved and it can be played in response to cancel a Nazgul that was tapped, becoming a short or long event. Great!
Question: Can Praise to Elbereth cancel Nazgul events from being tapped in response to Praise to Elbereth (the tapped Nazgul event declared after Praise). Meaning that mere declaration of Praise to Elbereth (without resolving) supersedes the timing rules to prevent a later tapped Nazgul from having effect even though Praise has not yet resolved? (This is not my position, but others have argued it).
Example Situation and questions: The 8 other Nazgul are in play as Permanent Events when Khamul is played (declared). (A) Can Praise to Elbereth cancel Khamul before it resolves? (B) Can Praise to Elbereth cancel Khamul after Khamul is tapped (becoming a short event)? (C) Can Praise to Elbereth prevent Khamul from Tapping at all (or having an effect from being tapped)? If Khamul is tapped and 2 characters are tapped using Praise to Elbereth to cancel the tapped Khamul and the untapped Ren, can Ren be tapped in response for effect?
I think that the timing rules would still apply: a Nazgul tapped in response to Praise to Elbereth would resolve before Praise resolves. Meaning that Praise would not cancel the Nazgul event. So the tapped Khamul could be canceled by Ren tapped in response would not be cancelled by Praise to Elbereth.
However, I have heard the argument that Praise will actually prevent tapping of Nazgul or the effects of a tapped Nazgul as if by Divine Intervention. This position on Praise derives from the CRF:
I wonder what the question and context was.CRF by Card - Praise to Elbereth
- Nazgûl events discarded by Praise to Elbereth have no effect.
- Which characters are tapping to discard which events must be declared when Praise to Elbereth is declared.
- Nazgûl permanent-events that are targeted by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped in response to its play.
Was the question: If I play a Nazgul, I can tap it to prevent Marvels Told from cancelling it, so can I tap a Nazgul to prevent Praise to Elbereth from cancelling it?
Answer: No. "Nazgûl permanent-events that are targeted by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped in response to its play" because the Nazgul targeted by Praise to Elbereth is not in play yet (whereas Marvels can only discard Nazgul Events already in play) and you cannot tap a declared Nazgul Permanent event.
Or was the question: If I tap Khamul and my opponent plays Praise to Elbereth to cancel Khamul and Ren (which is also in play), can I tap Ren in response to Praise to Elbereth to force corruptions before Praise cancels Ren?
Answer: No. "Nazgûl permanent-events that are targeted by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped in response to its play" because (A) Praise supersedes the timing rules somehow or (B) A new rule to the game where Thou Shalt Not Tappeth of Thy Ringwraith in response to Praise.
It seems that this CRF ruling is based on the original Clarification of Praise in the METW Companion:
Right, a cancelled event is discarded and has no effect. But is this just cancellation of declared Permanent Events and events declared by tapping/activating Nazgul? Or can Praise cancel a later declared Nazgul?METW Companion wrote:Praise to Elbereth (clarification)--When this card is played, you must declare which characters are targetting which Nazgul events. A cancelled Nazgul event--as a permanent-event or activated--is discarded and has no effect.
There are other rulings on Praise:
ICE FAQ #3-7, all from 1996 wrote:Q: What happens to Nazgul events cancelled using Praise to Elbereth?
A: They are discarded and have no effect. Also note that when Praise to Elbereth is played, you must declare which characters are tapping to cancel which Nazgul events.
This ruling was from Scott Frazer, whereas the rest were from Ichabod.ICE Netrep - 2/19/1996 wrote:Question: What cards are considered "Nazgul events" for the purposes of Praise to Elbereth. The cards don't specifically say Nazgul event on most, so who's to say if it can cancel a Pale Sword, Nazgul are abroad, etc. And can Praise to Elbereth be used to counter/null Khamul's discard ability?
Answer: Nazgul played as permanent events, and nazgul tapped to be played as short (or long) events.
Praise can be used to cancel Khamul's ability after Khamul is tapped, and at the same time be used to try and pop a bunch of other Nazgul Perm. events. Those Perm. events can still be tapped and turned into short events, however (which would not be canceled without another praise.)
ICE Digest 38 wrote:Question: Anyway, I have a basic question regarding Praise to Elbereth. If you tap a character with this card to cancel a Nazgul event, does it get discarded? Can opponent play Morgul Horse to take Nazgul back to his hand before it gets discarded by Praise...?
Answer: No. Morgul-horse can only retrieve Nazgul events that were tapped. You may not tap a Nazgul event in response to Praise to Elbereth.
Oh really? Praise to Elbereth supersedes the timing rules? Was this ruling a mistake? Or is this what it really does?ICE Digest 61 wrote:Question: Praise to Elbereth: Suppose my opponent has all 9 Nazgul in play. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Question: a. If he taps Khamul, I can play Praise to Elbereth, declare tapping characters, and cancel Khamul's Short-Event.
Question b. Before he taps any Nazgul, I can play Praise to Elbereth, declare tapping characters, and cancel Khamul the Permanent-Event before he can use it.
This is the same ruling as the previous one.ICE Digest 86 wrote: Question: Can i use "Praise to Elbereth" to get rid of a Nazgul Perm-event in play ?
Answer: Yes. And note that a Nazgul permanent-event targeted by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped. (CRF, Card Rulings, Praise to Elbereth)
I think this all goes back to the interpretation of "cancel":
ICE Netrep - 3/10/1997 wrote:>The thread involving Marvels Told and Nazgul (specifically Adunaphel) is
>raging, so I thought I'd expand the scope a bit:
>If Marvels Told, Wizards's River Horses, and Praise to Elbereth are played
>*outside* the m/h phase, the player of the Nazgul perm events does not
>have the opportunity to respond. That much we all agree on, methinks.
I should hope so, seeing as it is correct.
>It is when these cards are played inside the m/h phase that things get
>sticky. The CRF says in regards to Praise to Elbereth (quote): "Nazgul
>events discarded by PtE have no effect." This seems a rather heavyhanded
>way of dealing with the problem, for it doesn't deal with Annotations 5
>and 6, or any other relevant subtleties.
It is more a clarification of "cancel," at least for PtE. Cancel
means discard without effect, so you couldn't really tap in response.
Cancelling something before it happens isn't really in the scope of
Annotation 5 or 6, and there are no relevant subtleties I can think
>Ichabod, is there a consistent ruling that will cover *all* of these
>cards? This subject was really bugging me a few months back, and I
>thought I had it covered, but evidently not.
There is no consistent ruling because they all do different things.
>Reference has been made as well to the "Daelomin at Home debate". If I
>understand correctly, although Marvels Told can force the discard of DaH,
>inside the m/h phase this still allows the normal effect of increasing
>hazard limit. Is this right? (DaH seems a simpler case than the Nazgul
>perm events, since there isn't the ambiguity of a permanent event becoming
>a short event).
DaH is different because it is discarded and not tapped, and this happens
at declaration so it isn't around to be Marvels Tolded (double past tense
Conclusion: From these last 2 quotes I believe that the Netrep (A) ruled that Praise to Elbereth supersedes the timing rules and (B) was mistaken on cancellation because a cancellation effect can only negate another effect if the cancellation effect is actually resolved beforehand.ICE Netrep - 9/7/1997 wrote:I've been keeping quiet so far because I wanted to check with Mike Reynolds
to make sure I was right about all this. I will try to respond to all
the many questions in the thread so far.
1. The Marvels Told thing: You cannot Marvels Told a card played from
someone's hand until it resolves. It is not in play until then, and not a
valid target because it is not in play [Annotation 1].
2. The Nazgul Thing: A Nazgul becoming a short event happen simultaneously
with tapping the card, and therefore simultaneously with declaring the
tapping for effect. So you cannot respond to a Nazgul tapping with Marvels
Told, since it is no longer a permanent-event. The quick among you have
noticed the exception: The Witch-king becomes a long-event, and so is
still a valid target for Marvels Told.
3. The Daelomin Thing: You cannot respond to the discarding of Daelomin
At Home from play (to increase the hazard limit) with Marvels Told. This
is because any discard that is an active condition happens at declaration
[Annotation 6]. Since it is not in play it cannot be a target anymore.
This is implied but not explicitly stated by Annotation 1.
4. The Praise to Elbereth Thing: The reason the CRF says the Nazgul
are discarded with no effect is to allow you to discard Nazgul in
play without them responding to you. This allows it to be used
effectively in the movement/hazard phase, and is mainly a clarification
of cancelling the event.
I hope I got everything, but I left something out I'm sure y'all'll
let me know.
The CoE NetRep accepted Praise to Elbereth as an exception to the timing rules.CoE 67 wrote: Hm, this is a bit confusing, esp. when comparing the river-horses to "Praise to Elbereth" (CRF: "Nazgûl permanent-events that are targeted
by Praise to Elbereth may not be tapped in response to its play.") I've never quite unterstood this ruling (as it seems to contradict the
whole "chain of effects"-thing), but I can't see why Wizard's River-horses should be any different from Praise to Elbereth.
According to this reasoning, you should not be able to tap a Nazgul in response to Wizard's River-horses.
*** The ruling for Praise to Elbereth is specific to that card, and an exception to the normal timing rules.
So, is this how you guys play Praise to Elbereth?CoE 110 wrote:PtE: According to the CRF ruling by card title on Praise to Elbereth, Nazgul events may not be tapped in response to the play of PtE. Therefore, there is only one chain possible for this card (PtE in response to the tapping of the nazgul), and so this card is 100% effective.