General Confusion (not mine) on Ready to His Will

[Bandobras Took]

Condition, Active: A prerequisite for an action actively made by a player.

Action: Any activity in the game (card play, a corruption check caused by Lure of the Senses, etc.). An opponent and yourself have the opportunity to declare other actions in response.

Ready to His Will

Playable on an Orc, Troll, Giant, Slayer, or Man hazard creature with one strike for each of its attacks. All attacks of the creature are canceled. The creature becomes an ally under the control of any character in the company that now taps. It has a mind of 1, 1 ally marshalling point, prowess equal to its normal prowess minus 7, and a body equal to 8. Place this card with the creature.

If a card specifies that more than one action occurs when the card is itself resolved in a chain of effects, all of these actions are to be resolved in the card's chain of effects uninterrupted and in the order listed on the card. No actions may be declared to occur between these multiple actions. The actions listed on the card are considered to have been declared in the reverse order as they are printed.

Looking at the thread on the NetRep board on Ready to His Will, most seem to be confusing active conditions for card play with active conditions for an action:

All that concerns me in this case is that tapping is a cost of playing Ready to His Will. I have argued that it is.

This cannot be the case. The card text of Ready to His Will states unequivocally that tapping is the active condition for making the hazard creature attack an ally.

The creature becomes an ally under the control of any character in the company that now taps.

That tapping has to occur when the action is declared, which occurs after card play is declared. The conditions for declaring the play of the card are a resolved hazard creature attack with one strike for each of its attacks.

If I have to tap a character to play Ready to His Will, then I cannot tap the character in order to fulfil the active condition of tapping for one of its actions.

It seems, based on the multiple action rule, that it would go like this:

1) Declare Play of Ready to His Will -- check for valid attack, which is the condition of its play. (Or, at your option, see step 3.5)
2) Declare that the Creature will become an ally -- tap the character now, per the card text.
3) Declare that all attacks of the creature are canceled.
3.5) Depending on how you read the rules, card play is declared at this point.
4) Opponent plays something in response.

4b) All responses resolve.
3.5b) Depending on how you read the rules, card play resolves.
3b) Cancelling resolves.
2b) Creature becoming ally resolves; character must still be tapped or the action is canceled.
1b) Card play resolves (and don't blame me for this illogic, it's ICE's fault).

Note that active conditions for card play and active conditions for a card's action cannot possibly be the same thing, else Secrets of Their Forging would require that a sage and a site be both tapped and untapped upon resolution.

I know it's been discussed several times before, but what I've seen leads me to believe that the people on both sides were assuming that the only possible action to have an active condition is card play, which is not the case.

Anyway, my break's over.

Time to go back to work.

[Konrad Klar]

I would prefer not using word "active" for conditions for a card's action. This makes confusion.
Action does not happen if some conditions are not in play but that conditions are not required for card play (e.g. not having Beorn or untapped warrior with prowess 4 or more in company for Beorning Skin-Changers).

I don't see room for declaring anything in middle of resolving Ready to His Will. Reasons for such supposition is unclear to me.

[Bandobras Took]

I don't see room for declaring anything in middle of resolving Ready to His Will. Reasons for such supposition is unclear to me.

I wasn't saying there was.

I was saying that tapping the character must occur when the action "make a creature an ally" is declared; otherwise, the action may not be declared.

Also that this cannot possibly be a condition for playing the card.

[Konrad Klar]

I think that problem lies somewhere else.

Some card's action are dependent on previous card's action. If previous action cannot be done (or is unsuccesful), then next does not happen. Actual problem is lack of word "if"...

Ilustration may be Token of Goodwill:

Offering Attempt. Playable on a diplomat whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Target diplomat makes a corruption check. If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence. If the result is greater than the listed values, the attack is canceled, and you may take one resource from your play deck or discard pile into your hand (reshuffle play deck if searched). Against a Dragon: greater item/5, against a Drake: major item/6, against men, Slayer, or any Agent: minor item/7.

"If he does not fail" is clear here:
cc must be successful or must be not done at all (as it is in case of ally diplomat).

But it is not explicitly written, what happens if item cannot be discarded.
Roll is made or rather all further actions cannot be done?
Unfortunately it remains in sphere of rulings/players consideration.
And it is also in case of Ready to His Will if no character can be tapped.

[Bandobras Took]

Some card's action are dependent on previous card's action. If previous action cannot be done (or is unsuccesful), then next does not happen.

Yes, but turning the creature into an ally is the last action of Ready to His Will, and is declared before (and therefore resolves after) the cancelling of the attacks.

Are you saying that if Forewarned is in play, a character may not tap to make the creature an ally because the attacks cannot be canceled?

Actually, Token of Goodwill shows the kind of writing that would make canceling the attack and making the creature an ally synonymous:

If he does not fail, discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence.

Those two actions are meant to be done simultaneously. In the case of Ready to His Will, making the creature an ally is meant to be done after the canceling of attacks, not concurrently.

Another neat thing -- discarding the item is a condition of making the roll on Token, but according to the rules, it has to be done before you declare the corruption check roll -- indeed, before you know whether the corruption check will succeed or fail.

[Konrad Klar]

In the case of Ready to His Will, making the creature an ally is meant to be done after the canceling of attacks, not concurrently.

If it would be true (i.e. canceling attacks and making ally would be separate actions in full meaning of this word, with all consequences) then when attacks would be canceled, creature would be discarded. Next separate action (making ally) could not be done.

Another neat thing -- discarding the item is a condition of making the roll on Token, but according to the rules, it has to be done before you declare the corruption check roll -- indeed, before you know whether the corruption check will succeed or fail.

This "neat thing" is just the same thing from your first post, that I don't understand.

As far I know:
Actions printed on card are declared in reverse order than order in which are printed on card.
They are declared when card is played.

[jhunholz]

I've never considered actions on cards to be handled in reverse order. If that were the case, you would have to pass the corruption check on Marvels Told before you could discard the hazard perm event. As far as I've always understood it, the hazard perm event is discarded no matter what. If you character misses the corruption check, that's a separate issue and happens after you get rid of the hazard.

[Konrad Klar]

@jhunholz:

Actions printed on card are declared in reverse order than order in which are printed on card.

<->

Actions printed on card are resolved in order in which are printed on card.

[Bandobras Took]

This "neat thing" is just the same thing from your first post, that I don't understand.

As far I know:
Actions printed on card are declared in reverse order than order in which are printed on card.
They are declared when card is played.

It goes like this:

1) Declare Play of Token
2) Declare possible roll to cancel attack. Discarding item is the condition of the roll, so must be discarded on declaration.
3) Declare corruption check.

Then it resolves, but you have to establish the condition of making the roll on declaration, so whether or not you make the corruption check, the item must be discarded, and its CPs will not count towards the corruption check because it is discarded before the corruption check resolves.

[Konrad Klar]

It not goes like this in my opinion.

Then it resolves, but you have to establish the condition of making the roll on declaration, so whether or not you make the corruption check, the item must be discarded, and its CPs will not count towards the corruption check because it is discarded before the corruption check resolves.

Such interpretations are results of concept of so called "conditions for a card's action" and that such conditions must be fulfiled at declaration, like active conditions.

Fact that some actions are dependent on success of other actions does not mean that seconds should be treated as active conditions for firsts.

P.S.

The actions listed on the card are considered to have been declared in the reverse order as they are printed.

[Bandobras Took]

It not goes like this in my opinion.

Such interpretations are results of concept of so called "conditions for a card's action" and that such conditions must be fulfiled at declaration, like active conditions.

Privately, I agree with you, in that most of the rulings on active conditions are incorrect and based on vague definitions.

Fact that some actions are dependent on success of other actions does not mean that seconds should be treated as active conditions for firsts.

Of course not. But the relevant thing here is the phrase on Token which says

discard an item from his company (as listed below), and make a roll (or draw a #) adding the diplomat's unused direct influence.

Making the roll to cancel does not depend on discarding the item for its success; rather, you discard the item to make the roll to cancel. Therefore, by rule:

If an action requires an entity to be discarded as a condition for the action's main effect, that entity must be discarded when the action is declared; this is considered synonymous with the action's declaration; i.e., it is not a separate action.

You have to discard the item when the roll to cancel is declared. If the roll is never declared, then it does not ever resolve and will not have any effect.

The actions listed on the card are considered to have been declared in the reverse order as they are printed.

Therefore, you discard the item on declaration of the roll to cancel. Then you declare the corruption check.

When the card resolves, you first make a corruption check, and the item has already been discarded at this point.

Next the declared roll resolves and checks to make sure it can be performed (would the successful cc be a passive condition? I'm understanding active conditions, but the passive ones still throw me. ). The item is not discarded during resolution; it was discarded when the dice-rolling to cancel the attack action was declared.

To return to Ready to His Will:

Tapping the character to make the creature an ally is a condition of that action, not of card play nor of canceling the attack. Whether the attacking creature has been placed in the discard pile or not is irrelevant: it will still become the ally of the character who taps. The only thing that can prevent this from happening is if the creature is eliminated or removed from play before the tapping to make it an ally happens.

[Konrad Klar]

Therefore, you discard the item on declaration of the roll to cancel. Then you declare the corruption check.

When the card resolves, you first make a corruption check, and the item has already been discarded at this point.

Only assuming that discarding of item is active condition for action from Token of Goodwill.
I disagree with that assumption.

I see it in other (less complicated?) way:
- If action is successful (conditions are met) than next (dependent) action may be done.
- If action is not successful (conditions are not met) than next (dependent) action may not be done.
- Actions may be simultaneous thus mutually dependent.

(would the successful cc be a passive condition? I'm understanding active conditions, but the passive ones still throw me. ).

Of course action can be passive condition (e.g. failed cc for actions of Traitor or cc from Lure of Power for second action of Lure of Power ).

The only thing that can prevent this from happening is if the creature is eliminated or removed from play before the tapping to make it an ally happens.

Or fact that target of action is not in play.

[Bandobras Took]

Therefore, you discard the item on declaration of the roll to cancel. Then you declare the corruption check.

When the card resolves, you first make a corruption check, and the item has already been discarded at this point.

Only assuming that discarding of item is active condition for action from Token of Goodwill.
I disagree with that assumption.

I see it in other (less complicated?) way:
- If action is successful (conditions are met) than next (dependent) action may be done.
- If action is not successful (conditions are not met) than next (dependent) action may not be done.
- Actions may be simultaneous thus mutually dependent.

Token of goodwill has two actions: the first is the corruption check, the second is rolling to cancel the attack. This action of necessity depends on the first.

But discarding the item for the roll to cancel the attack is at least as much of an active condition as discarding the wizard in Sac of Form (and draw what conclusion you will of that. ).

The only thing that can prevent this from happening is if the creature is eliminated or removed from play before the tapping to make it an ally happens.

Or fact that target of action is not in play.

There are any number of cards that target cards in the discard pile. By implication, Ready to His Will either acts on the creature once it is in the discard pile, or prevents it from being discarded in the first place.

[Konrad Klar]

But discarding the item for the roll to cancel the attack is at least as much of an active condition as discarding the wizard in Sac of Form (and draw what conclusion you will of that. ).

If you are in "discarding of Wizard is active condition of Sac of Form" camp, then I understand why you are maintaining that discarding of item is not action of Token of Goodwill (main effect).

There are any number of cards that target cards in the discard pile. By implication, Ready to His Will either acts on the creature once it is in the discard pile, or prevents it from being discarded in the first place.

Some card's text explicitly overrides rules. For instance A Malady Without Healing overrides rule that "You cannot target an opponent's character or resources with your own resources".

General rule remains unchanged.

[Bandobras Took]

But discarding the item for the roll to cancel the attack is at least as much of an active condition as discarding the wizard in Sac of Form (and draw what conclusion you will of that. ).

If you are in "discarding of Wizard is active condition of Sac of Form" camp, then I understand why you are maintaining that discarding of item is not action of Token of Goodwill (main effect).

I'm not actually in that camp, but it has been ruled on so I have to follow the party line.

There are any number of cards that target cards in the discard pile. By implication, Ready to His Will either acts on the creature once it is in the discard pile, or prevents it from being discarded in the first place.

Some card's text explicitly overrides rules. For instance A Malady Without Healing overrides rule that "You cannot target an opponent's character or resources with your own resources".

General rule remains unchanged.

Then would not the creature becoming an ally override what normally happens (discarding)?