Miruvor: YES, it's usable after being wounded but before body check

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CDavis7M
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Miruvor: YES, it's usable after being wounded but before body check

Post by CDavis7M »

Miruvor states "Discard to give +2 body (to a maximum of 10) for all characters in bearer's company until the end of the turn."

I have been playing such that Miruvor must be discarded before being wounded. Meaning, it must be discarded/used preemptively (guessing that I would be wounded) due to the restrictions in place during the Strike Sequence. However, I was reviewing Annotation 19 (Other actions may be declared in response to a body check, in the same chain of effects, but these are limited to those actions that directly affect the body check dice- roll) and the CRF on Body Checks ("Affecting the body check" includes modifying the die roll or the body of the character making the check.) and now I have changed my position on Miruvor (I think it can be played after being wounded but before rolling the body check).

From what I can tell, this has not been discussed by the ICE netreps. There is one point on Miruvor by the CoE Netrep. However, the CoE Netrep followed the same reasoning I was following and failed to consider Annotation 19 and the CRF on Body Checks. I'll post the rules and then the CoE Ruling and some discussion here on the CoE Forums. Also, I saw nothing on Orc-liquor.

Do any of you guys not just play Balrog? Anyone use Miruvor? How do you all play? Let me know what you think. [-me_mp-]

Update: ICE Confirmed that Miruvor and Orc-liquor directly affect the body-check roll and may be played after being wounded.

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MELE p. 33 wrote:THE STRIKE SEQUENCE
The "strike sequence" is the time from when a player declares that one of his characters will resolve a strike until the strike dice roll is
made and any associated body checks are made.
Strikes are resolved one at a time as decided by the defending player (i.e., he chooses a strike to resolve, the strike is resolved, he Chooses the next strike to resolve, the strike is resolved, etc.).
All of the factors affecting a strike must be decided during the strike sequence before making the roll (2D6). Cards that do not affect the strike may not be played during the strike sequence.
Address these factors in the following order:
1) The attacker may play hazard cards that affect the strike (these count toward the hazard limit against this company).
2) The attacker may decide to use any or all of his remaining (if any) -1 modifiers due to unallocated strikes (i.e., strikes in excess of the
company's size).
3) A target untapped character may take a-3 modification so that he will not automatically tap following the strike sequence.
4) The defending player may play resource cards that affect the strike (up to one card that requires skill).
I had been thinking that the Strike Sequence included the Strike Roll and the Body Check roll, but maybe it doesn't? "Until" is not "until after." And there is no 5) roll the dice 6) roll any body check in this Strike Sequence list above. Still, this doesn't matter in view of Annotation 19 and the CRF.
CoE #55 wrote:I'd like to know which of the following are allowed during the strike
sequence:
...
9. Modify target character's body (discard Miruvor for instance).


*** You just gotta make things difficult, don't you? First, let me throw a bunch of CRF rulings at you, all from Turn Sequence Rulings, Movement/Hazard Phase, Combat, The Strike Sequence:
# Annotation 17: The only actions that may be declared during a strike sequence are those outlined in Annotation 18.
# Annotation 18: When a defending player chooses to resolve a strike against a particular character, the only actions that may be taken by
either player until the strike dice-roll is made are the following: playing hazard cards that affect the strike, the attacker may decide to
use any or all of his remaining -1 modifications due to strikes in excess of the company's size, a target untapped character may take a -3
modification so that he will not automatically tap, and the defending character may play resource cards that affect the strike. An action that
has the condition that a target character tap, but which otherwise has an effect not outlined here, may not be declared at this point. This is
true even if the recipient of the strike would be the target character tapping and thus receive -1 to his prowess.
# Interpret "may play resource cards that affect the strike" in annotation 18 as "may initiate resource / character effects that affect the strike".
# Getting rid of an event that boosts the strike's prowess is affecting the strike, as per annotation 18.
# There is time between the strike sequences to take actions that are otherwise legal.
Given that last ruling, everything you listed can happen between strikes. During a particular strike, however, only 1, 5 if it affects the prowess of the character facing the strike, and 10 if it affects the prowess of the character facing the strike, are allowed, per Annotation 18. Everything else, at best, will eventually affect the strike, but does not have an effect in and of itself, and is therefore illegal.
The CoE Netrep ruled that Miruvor cannot be discarded during the Strike Sequence. However, the CoE Netrep failed to consider Annotation 19 and the CRF on Body Checks. Still, maybe this ruling is accurate with respect to Miruvor used during the Strike Sequence (if the Strike Sequence does NOT include the Body Check roll).

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The only discussion I found on here:
DuncanNeeds2Shave wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:35 pm
5. If a character is in the same company as the minor item Miruvor, and that character fails a strike against an attack, can the Miruvor be discarded before the body check roll is made to boost his body by 2, or must the Miruvor be discarded before the strikes are resolved?
Bandobras Took wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:47 am
5) Miruvor may be discarded before the body check is rolled.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:30 am
And not in response to body check.

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Here are the rules that changed my mind (putting aside anything about "special actions" resulting from a strike since they aren't relevant to Miruvor)
Annotation 19: Following each successful strike or failed strike, a body check must be rolled (unless the failed strike has no body). However, if the strike calls for any special actions to follow it (e.g., a character wounded by "William" may be required to discard his items), these special actions are resolved before the body check. The body check is the first declared action in a nested chain of effects that immediately follows the strike dice-roll and special actions resulting from the strike. Other actions may be declared in response to a body check, in the same chain of effects, but these are limited to those actions that directly affect the body check dice- roll. E.g., Tookish Blood could not be declared in response to the body check caused by Giant Spiders wounding a Hobbit. No action may be declared in response to a special action resulting from a strike unless the special action is a dice-rolling action, i.e., a special action is generally considered synonymous with the strike dice-roll. If the special action is a dice-rolling action, an action may be declared in response to it if the action directly affects the dice-roll.
So, certain actions may be declared in response to the body check, but only those that "affect the body check."
CRF - Terms wrote: Body Check
"Affecting the body check" includes modifying the die roll or the body of the character making the check.
Meaning, that you could discard Miruvor in response to the body check to get +2 to body. This seems OK. After all, you can boost a character's prowess during the Strike Sequence, before the strike roll, even though you are restricted to only playing effects that "affect the strike." Same difference. Of course, you can use Miruvor to save a character after failing the body check just like Risky Blow cannot save a character from being wounded.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:44 pm
So, certain actions may be declared in response to the body check, but only those that "affect the body check."
No.
Only those that affect the body check dice-roll, that are subset of those that affect the body check.
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by CDavis7M »

So you disagree with the CRF on Body Checks?



Putting aside the Annotations, under the rules in the Rulesbook Miruvor would be usable after the strike roll that wounds the character and before rolling the character's body check.

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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Theo »

Could you be clearer about what disagreement you think you are seeing?
"Affecting the body check" includes modifying the die roll or the body of the character making the check.
Note that "modifying the die roll" and "modifying the body of the character making the check" are distinguished components of the overall body check.
these are limited to those actions that directly affect the body check dice- roll.
that is, only the first of those two components. Actions that effect the second component but not the first would thus not qualify.

On your side, it seems like you want to ignore the underlined part?
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by CDavis7M »

The CRF statement is quoting and modifying Annotation 19 (which is the only rule about "affecting the body check.")

So, I'm not ignoring the underlined part of Annotation 19, I'm reading the CRF statement on bodychecks that changes Annotation 19 so that it allows for Miruvor to be used after the strike roll and before the body check.

It seems like you want to ignore the CRF on Body Checks?

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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Theo »

Sorry, what? The "Body Check" definition that I quoted which distinguished two components? What is the "change" (in terms of rule language, not in terms of what you want it to mean)?
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by CDavis7M »

Take Annotation 19 and the CRF on Body checks and you get:

Other actions may be declared in response to a body check, in the same chain of effects, but these are limited to those actions that directly affect the body check dice- roll WHERE "Affecting the body check" includes modifying the die roll or the body of the character making the check.

The CRF on Body Checks let's both components be modified,not just 1 as in Annotation 19.

Think -- Which card could be played in response to the body check roll that modifies the roll itself? None. Which is why the CRF clarifies that you can modify the character's body also.
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Theo »

Maybe you could provide a simile or a parse tree?

To me:
"the body check dice-roll" => "the dice-roll component of the body check"

That is, the "body check" phrase in this sentence is an adjective modifying the "dice-roll" phrase, and the "dice-roll" is what needs to be directly affected.

Putting that into your merger:
Other actions may be declared in response to a body check, in the same chain of effects, but these are limited to those actions that directly affect the dice-roll component of the body check WHERE "Affecting the body check" includes modifying the die roll or the body of the character making the check.

That is, your WHERE addition doesn't change anything.

If I instead try to shove the "affecting the body check" inclusion into the original (as though those four words in succession were meant to be interpreted as their own phrase), the "dice-roll" phrase becomes dangling.
Other actions may be declared in response to a body check, in the same chain of effects, but these are limited to those actions that directly (modify the die roll or the body of the character making the check [or, possibly, do something else]) dice-roll.
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by CDavis7M »

Think -- Which card could be played in response to the body check roll that modifies the roll itself? None. Which is why the CRF clarifies that you can modify the character's body in response to a deviated body check.

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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Theo »

How about Spawn of Ungoliant. Blow Turned. Stabbing Tongue of Fire (say vs. Smaug played with a Rumor of Wealth). Arguably Adunaphel Unleashed / Motionless Among the Slain (if you want your guy to die). What am I missing?
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:53 am
How about Spawn of Ungoliant. Blow Turned. Stabbing Tongue of Fire (say vs. Smaug played with a Rumor of Wealth). Arguably Adunaphel Unleashed / Motionless Among the Slain (if you want your guy to die). What am I missing?
Your missing the rules on the Strike Sequence. Those cards are not playable in response to a body check against a strike.

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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Theo »

Would you care to explain your reasoning?
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:13 am
Would you care to explain your reasoning?
There is a sequence to be followed in the Strike Sequence.

Image

Blow Turned - This is played at Step (4), not in response to the body check. Even if played in response to the body check, the "if wounded, -1" effect would not trigger since the character is already wounded.

Motionless Among the Slain - This card is played on an attack, not on/against a strike.

Adunaphel Unleashed - This card is played on an attack, not a strike.

Stabbing Tongue of Fire - This is an item. Items are not played during the strike sequence. If it was already in play, it's body check modification would trigger.

Spawn of Ungoliant -- This body check modification effect triggers using passive conditions. However, the body check has already been declared once this card has resolved and so there is no opportunity to trigger it's effect to target the declared body check since the body check chain of effects is already resolving. Of course its effect would work if it was played before the body check was declared. (Update: I think this is correct but cancellation would work differently as it negates effects.)
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Body check is not part of a Strike Sequence.
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:53 am
Spawn of Ungoliant -- This body check modification effect triggers using passive conditions.
I wish you successes with playing Foolish Words in response to Riddling Talk.
If you think that modifiers to dice-roll from cards in play are actions activated by passive condition (declaration of a dice-roll).
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Re: Miruvor: Usable wounded before body check?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Anyway, if you think that modifiers to dice-roll from cards in play are actions activated by passive condition (declaration of a dice-roll), then you have other answer:
Actions caused by Spawn of Ungoliant, Stabbing Tongue of Fire, Durin's Bane, Troth-ring in play.
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