Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

But Wizard's Trove does not affect the card in hand.
Or does it affect the card in hand?

The White Tree is not in play when declared. Something may happen between declaration and resolution (especially in M/H phase) that will fizzle it.
E.g. site where Sapling of the White Tree was stored may cease to be a Wizardhaven.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:58 pm
But Wizard's Trove does not affect the card in hand.
Or does it affect the card in hand?

The White Tree is not in play when declared. Something may happen between declaration and resolution (especially in M/H phase) that will fizzle it.
E.g. site where Sapling of the White Tree was stored may cease to be a Wizardhaven.
You are asking questions about the timing rules. The timing rules apply to effects that are declared and resolved. There are many statements in a card's text that are not actions and thus are not declared and resolved using the timing rules. Some statements are instructions to the player on how the game is to be played instead (without being declared and resolved using timing rules).

"Cannot be duplicated" is a statement in card text that is not an action and is not declared or resolved. "Playable on..." is not declared or resolved. "May be revealed as an on-guard card" is not declared or resolved. "Attacker chooses defending characters" is not declared or resolved. "Ignore the text of The White Tree" in Wizard's Trove is not declared or resolved.

There is no timing issue with the ignoring of the Unique keyword by Wizard's Trove. And even if there were the case, there is no justification for having a card fizzle it's own effects.

Also, the Unique rules are just rules on the playability of cards. There are many card effects that change the playability of other cards.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Are you believing in joint actions, by chance? :shock:

I think that Wizard's Trove allows its player to play The White Tree under modified conditions.
If so played The White Tree is in play the Wizard's Trove is placed on it and takes its effects (all in the same time, or in printed order).

If instead The White Tree would be played along with Wizard's Trove (like hazard host along with placing a rescue site, or like a resource with Crown of Flowers), then yes: The White Tree would be played then as non-unique card, because its original text would be ignored.
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:17 pm
The check for presence of other copy in play is made from the side of the card that has to be played. The card that has to be played needs to have the keyword Unique removed to overcome playability restrictions of unique cards.
Time to admitting an error.
Unique: A keyword that means only one copy of the card can be included in a player's play deck, starting company, and
sideboard combined. Additionally, only one copy of the card may be in play at a time; additional copies cannot be
played
.
Underline mine.

I have read the underline phrase as "unique card may not be played if its copy is in play".
True, but not whole true.
"additional copies cannot be played" if either a copy in play is unique, or a copy to be played is unique. Both may be obstacle.

I have mistaken the above problem with similar:
X in play says that it is a manifestation of Y.
Y does not say that it is a manifestation of X.

If X has removed part of its text that says that it is a manifestation of Y, then Y may be played.

(not important for different manifestations of the same unique Dragon)
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Kjeld »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:38 pm
"additional copies cannot be played" if either a copy in play is unique, or a copy to be played is unique. Both may be obstacle.
This is what I was saying before.
Kjeld wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 pm
In other words, so long as one of the copies in question has an active "Unique" keyword, both can't be in play at once.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

The bottom line for me is: Wizard's Trove say to ignore card text, which includes the Unique keyword. It could have said "effects" but didn't. And so any rule on Unique is ignored for the White Tree played with Wizard's Trove.

The arguments based on the Unique rules aren't convincing as these rules are ignored. The arguments on timing rules aren't convincing because they suggest that a card could somehow fizzle itself.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:07 am
Are you believing in joint actions, by chance? :shock:
No. Joint actions are not a thing in this game.
Just synonymous actions as in the Annotations.

But in this game some statements on a card are not actions and are not resolved in a chain of effects. I think "ignore" in Wizards Trove is not an action that is resolved. Especially on Permanent events, many statements on the card are not resolved when the event is resolved. I see no timing issue in the "ignore" statement of Wizard's Trove.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

So maybe also Wizardhaven should become protected once The White Tree is declared?
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Kjeld wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:04 pm
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:38 pm
"additional copies cannot be played" if either a copy in play is unique, or a copy to be played is unique. Both may be obstacle.
This is what I was saying before.
Kjeld wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 pm
In other words, so long as one of the copies in question has an active "Unique" keyword, both can't be in play at once.
I did not overlooked it, but I can admit only my own error. :)

EDIT: "have" -> "did".
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:21 am
So maybe also Wizardhaven should become protected once The White Tree is declared?
There are lots of card statements that are instructions to the player but not effects declared in a chain of effects. Presumably the the wizardhaven becomes protected at resolution of Wizard's Trove when White Tree is played. "Ignore" is something the player does -- there is no action in the game. "Protected" is an attribute of a site -- resolved effects can change the attributes of entities.

Some more examples of card statements that are instructions to the player without being resolved:
  • Any effect of a permanent event that allows an action to be declared later using some active condition: "discard a stored Reforging to retrieve..."; " Andúril may be tapped to untap a Dúnadan character"; "tap sage to modify one corruption check" etc etc.
  • Crown of Flowers does not affect the interpretation of any card except the resource played with it.
  • only if stored do you receive its MP
  • Only the first News of the Shire stored is worth 3 MP

ICE considered the Unique rules and made their ruling. There is no reason to believe that some internal timing issue would cause the "ignore" statement of Wizard's Trove to fail. Unless there is some other rule that the ICE Netrep failed to consider, I see no reason not to follow the ruling. I'm not saying that other interpretations are not valid. But the ICE interpretation is valid and it's from ICE.

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