Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

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CDavis7M
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Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Wizard's Trove says "Ignore the text of The White Tree." ICE Ruled that the "Unique" keyword IS ignored. The CoE was not aware of the ICE ruling and ruled that "Unique" is NOT ignored. How you all play?

ICE Digest 81 wrote: [White Tree/Wizard's Trove Questions]
>WT says to ignore the text on WT when using WT to play it. Does this include the Sage requirement? The discarding of the Sapling?

Yes and yes.
ICE Digest 116 wrote:>Wizard's Trove states: "ignore card text" when refering to The White Tree. So, for FW's, The White Tree is not unique, since the keyword "unique" is part of the card text. Which of the following three examples are legal:
A. a FW-player has The White Tree in play, another FW-player plays one himself
B. a FW-player has The White Tree in play, a Hero-player plays one himself
C. a Hero-player has The White Tree in play, a FW-player plays one himself


All three, assuming the FW is playing the White Tree with Wizard's Trove in all three cases.
CoE #43 wrote:If a Fallen-Wizard player plays The White Tree with Wizard's Trove, and the text of The White Tree is ignored, does that mean another player can play The White Tree? Is the "Unique" keyword ignored on The White Tree if Wizard's Trove is used to play it?

*** No.
CoE #63 wrote:And then I wondered: since the text of the White Tree is ignored, is it also no longer unique? So can both players bring it in play?

*** That is correct. Once The White Tree is in play under Wizard's Trove, it is no longer unique
CoE #65 wrote:Travis Took was kind enough to find this:
The "Unique" keyword is not ignored on The White Tree if Wizard's Trove is used to play it. Ruled By Chad in NetRep Ruling Digest 43

*** Consider this ruling correct and the recent ruling to the contrary
incorrect.
To me, it's clear that "Unique" is inside the box for the card's text, and would be ignored.
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

If unique card has to be played, it is checked whether its copy is in play.
If it is in play, the unique card cannot be played. Removed Unique keyword in text of the copy in play does not change the procedure, nor its result.
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

From your statement, is your position: If a Fallen Wizard has played White Tree using Wizard's Trove and it's text is ignored, then a hero Wizard may play White Tree as usual since "Unique" on the first White Tree is ignored. But if the hero Wizard has played White Tree as usual, then a Fallen Wizard may not play White Tree using Wizard's Trove because the "Unique" keyword would be checked at declaration before being ignored?

Putting aside the rules, is that the way that you play? Do you know if others play that way as well?



I checked the rules again and I do not see the restriction: "If unique card has to be played, it is checked whether its copy is in play."

First, looking again at the rules on keywords, I notice that keywords like Unique actually are in the card's text. And Wizard's Trove says "ignore text", which includes keywords. It doesn't just reference the "effects" of a card, which is commonly done by other cards.
KEYWORDS
Several types of cards are referred to by the keyword included in the first few words of a card's text. For example, the text of a "spirit-magic" card starts with Magic. Spirit-magic; the text of a "wolf" card starts with Wolves; the text of a "Palantir" starts with Unique. Palantir.
Keywords do not necessarily carry any rules (though some do like Unique and Corruption). Keywords are used to determine if an effect in the game affects a card.
Then, looking at the rules on Unique they only prevent more than one Unique card from being "in play." Being "in play" is different from being declared ("played") per Annotation 1. At resolution of Wizard's Trove, White Tree is played and "Unique" in it's card text is ignored. So I see no reason for preventing play of White Tree using Wizard's Trove even if White Tree has been played normally. Especially since Wizard's Trove says to ignore the "Unique" keyword of White Tree.
UNIQUE & "MAY NOT BE DUPLICATED" CARDS
If a card states that it is "unique" or that it "may not be duplicated,'' only one such card (or its effects) may be in play at a time. The first card played takes precedence (influence checks may change this). This restriction applies to all cards in play, i.e., both yours and your opponent's.
Only one of each "unique" card may be included in your play deck and starting cards combined. As an exception, two of the same Ringwraith may be included in your play deck (to give you a better chance of drawing one early).

Annotation 1: A card is not in play until it is resolved in its chain of effects.

A lot of Stage Cards require a "protected" Wizardhaven (one needs 2) but only Wizard's Trove and Guarded Haven can protect a Wizardhaven other than The White Towers or Isengard. Maybe this is the reason for ignoring "Unique."

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:47 pm
From your statement, is your position: If a Fallen Wizard has played White Tree using Wizard's Trove and it's text is ignored, then a hero Wizard may play White Tree as usual since "Unique" on the first White Tree is ignored. But if the hero Wizard has played White Tree as usual, then a Fallen Wizard may not play White Tree using Wizard's Trove because the "Unique" keyword would be checked at declaration before being ignored?
No.
Unique card cannot be played if its copy is in play.
It does not matter that the copy in play may have its text changed in such way that the keyword Unique is removed.
The check for presence of other copy in play is made from the side of the card that has to be played. The card that has to be played needs to have the keyword Unique removed to overcome playability restrictions of unique cards.
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:47 pm
Putting aside the rules, is that the way that you play? Do you know if others play that way as well?
In games I have played there were no controversies about playability of White Tree in situations where other copy was in play (along with Wizard's Trove or not).
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:17 pm
Unique card cannot be played if its copy is in play.
It does not matter that the copy in play may have its text changed in such way that the keyword Unique is removed.
Well, I don't see the support for that conclusion in the rules. Plus, White Tree says to ignore the text which includes the Unique keyword and ICE ruled that this was the case. I don't see enough support for the other interpretation to overcome this.

But I still wonder how people are playing it given that it seems some people know the CoE ruling but not the ICE ruling.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Lidless eye wrote:Unique: A keyword that means only one copy of the card can be included in a player's play deck, starting company, and
sideboard combined. Additionally, only one copy of the card may be in play at a time; additional copies cannot be
played
.
Underline mine.
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:33 pm
Lidless eye wrote:Unique: A keyword that means only one copy of the card can be included in a player's play deck, starting company, and
sideboard combined. Additionally, only one copy of the card may be in play at a time; additional copies cannot be
played
.
Underline mine.
Right. But Wizard's Trove says to ignore the Unique keyword. Meaning, "additional copies cannot be played" doesn't apply. And ICE ruled this way. It's not as if ICE didn't know the Unique rule. If there was some other contradictory rule that ICE seemingly did not consider, then maybe that would be sufficient to call their ruling into question. But there isn't. It's not as if cards are written to have their own effects fizzled due to some rule contradiction.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Kjeld »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:42 pm
Lidless eye wrote:
Unique: A keyword that means only one copy of the card can be included in a player's play deck, starting company, and
sideboard combined. Additionally, only one copy of the card may be in play at a time; additional copies cannot be
played.
Regardless of whether or not the text containing "Unique" is ignored on the copy of The White Tree already in play with Wizard's Trove, the next copy to be played will still contain the "Unique" keyword, at least at declaration, and so it's play would be blocked by the "only one copy of the card may be in play at a time" clause of the rule. I believe this is consistent with Konrad's stance. In other words, so long as one of the copies in question has an active "Unique" keyword, both can't be in play at once.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Is the argument that the ICE netrep didn't understand the Uniqueness rules? The explanation on Uniqueness above seems too convoluted to be correct when Wizard's Trove says to ignore the Unique keyword on White Tree. I just don't see why Wizard's Trove would say "ignore text" which includes keywords but then not address some supposed complexity in the Uniqueness rules that would cause the player to NOT ignore that keyword.

Putting that aside, I don't see how the underlined Uniqueness statement would prevent 2 Fallen Wizards from both playing White Tree using Wizard's Trove since both would ignore Unique. Rules on the Unique keyword don't apply to cards that are not Unique.



I can understand people just accepting the CoE position as how to play if that's all the knew. But I find no sufficient argument to overcome the ICE ruling.

Just to be clear, I don't build Wizard's Trove+White Tree Fallen Wizard decks, but I would let my Fallen Wizard opponent play White Tree using Wizard's Trove after playing White Tree in a hero deck. Which is how this came up.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Theo »

My impression is that the unique keyword has often been given special meaning beyond the original rulebooks. This has long been contentious. Examine, for example, Long Dark Reach rulings.
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:29 pm
Well, I don't see the support for that conclusion in the rules.
Reference CoE #65 and #43.

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

Here's the problem: a CoE ruling that is contrary to the ICE ruling but that does not consider or address the ICE ruling is against CoE Charter III(b).

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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Theo »

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The Charter was amended several times since CoE #43. The Annual Rules Vote mentioned in the current Charter didn't exist until 2018.

As for "Out of respect for ICE's legacy no new (non trivial) errata will be issued, nor will any rules from ICE's last CRF be overturned," note that rulings that didn't make it into the CRF were never protected! And these days, all of that has been thrown in the rubbish anyway, "to keep the game alive for each and every one’s enjoyment" (that is, if you enjoy Schism and Arguments!), with e.g. CoE Clarification[Errata] #6, etc, etc. (Or maybe "trivial" is too subjective?)

"One [online community] with hammer and chisel..."
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Unique: A keyword that means only one copy of the card can be included in a player's play deck, starting company, and
sideboard combined. Additionally, only one copy of the card may be in play at a time; additional copies cannot be
played
.
I have underlined that part, not the part "only one copy of the card may be in play at a time", because only the underlined part is enforceable, "only one copy of the card may be in play at a time" is the desired state.

Hypothetical effect that would turn a non-unique card into unique would not be stopped by "only one copy of the card may be in play at a time".
Similarly maximal allowed size of company outside Haven cannot stop an effect that turns a Wizardhaven into non-haven site.
Above limitations are too weakly protected (from being violated/exceeded) by rules, unlike company's composition limitations.
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by Konrad Klar »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:17 am
Hypothetical effect that would turn a non-unique card into unique would not be stopped by "only one copy of the card may be in play at a time".
Discarding Wizard's Trove is not hypothetical, but it unlikely will cause a phenomenon of multiple of copies of the same card in play, where at least one of the copies is unique.
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Re: Wizard's Trove + White Tree: Not Unique?

Post by CDavis7M »

But Wizard's Trove says to ignore the Unique keyword. And so the Unique rules don't apply.

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