Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:49 am Does Thorin not receive +4DI against Blue Mountain Dwarves?
I do not know what you are considering. I would think +2 from himself for that particular faction as well as +2 from himself for the faction being a dwarf faction. I am not aware of any alternative interpretations and can neither imagine any that follow deductive reasoning.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:49 am In MEDM agents are hazards.
By what basis? I see no ambiguity in:
MEDM wrote:Minion Cards (Clarification)
MEDM includes minion cards – a new type of card with a new type of template – the background is iron with a “rusted” purple tint. In MEDM, minions are used as hazards called ‘agents’.
Recap:
MEDM says that minion cards are NOT hazard cards. Minions are used as hazard by Wizard players.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:49 am There is no exception making non-played minion agents be characters instead of hazards besides for deck construction counting.
There wouldn't need to be an expection because minion agents are (and always have been)... minions!, which are (by MELE definition) character cards for Ringwraith players, and so implicitly also character cards (used as hazards) for Wizard players.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:49 am Plus, ICE ruled this already. The ICE Netrep has said that they removed certain rulings from the CRF to keep is smaller and that these rulings should be obvious from reading the rules. There were plenty of reversals and they were acknowledged as such.
We can circle endlessly. Just because some rules were left out for brevity and some were left out because of reconsideration and acknowledged as such doesn't mean that some weren't left out because of reconsideration and not explicitly highlighted.

If there is deductive debate explicitly against the ruling, then it probably wasn't a good consideration for being left out for brevity! Rather, it is more probable to have been left out from reconsideration precisely due to the contradiction.
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CDavis7M
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Except MEDM says "An agent is a hazard" in addition to "minions are used as hazards."

And especially since ICE ruled on it:
ICE - 1997/09/30 wrote:Agents in a minion deck are only characters while they are in play as characters, while they are being played as characters, and while you are constructing your deck.
If there was some legitimate oversight by the ICE Netrep then I would possibly consider whether the ruling was wrong. But if the argument is "rules were left out for brevity" then I would counter with "if it isn't there it isn't there TM"

Just because minion characters have purple borders does not mean that ALL cards with purple borders are characters.
Just because minion characters count as characters in the deck during gameplay does not mean that minion agents count as characters in the deck during gameplay.

If minion agents were supposed to count as characters during gameplay as well as for deck construction, the MELE rules would have said:
Minion agents included in a Ringwraith's deck count as characters for the purposes of meeting deck requirements.
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Theo
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Agents (in-play entity) are hazards. Perhaps the original question was misleading in that there is no categorical designation "agent card"; cards of agents are in the category minion cards. And minion cards are character cards per MELE.

Your ICE quote doesn't actually specify what agents are supposed to be outside of those situations. We know that when they are played as agents they count as hazards, but then it would still leave other situations ambiguous. Not surprisingly, the quote never seems to appear again.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:51 pm Just because minion characters have purple borders does not mean that ALL cards with purple borders are characters.
Just because minion characters count as characters in the deck during gameplay does not mean that minion agents count as characters in the deck during gameplay.
MELE defines there to be only 4 types of cards. All are defined by their possible borders. So if a purple border does not mean minion character, it cannot mean any other type of card.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:51 pm If minion agents were supposed to count as characters during gameplay as well as for deck construction, the MELE rules would have said:
Minion agents included in a Ringwraith's deck count as characters for the purposes of meeting deck requirements.
Except that minion agents included in a Ringwraiths's deck count as hazards when they are played as agents.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:37 am MELE defines there to be only 4 types of cards. All are defined by their possible borders. So if a purple border does not mean minion character, it cannot mean any other type of card.
The MELE rules only define the MELE cards, they don't define MEDM cards. The MEDM rules define the MEDM cards, including minion agents. Even the MELE rules state that the MEDM rules define agents: "Agents operate as outlined in the ME: Dark Minions rules." Furthermore, MELE always uses the term "minion agent" separate from "minion character." They are different. Both are minions but one is an agent hazard and the other is a character. MELE never refers to agents as "characters" or "minion characters" -- just that they can be played as a character.

Theo wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:37 am
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:51 pm If minion agents were supposed to count as characters during gameplay as well as for deck construction, the MELE rules would have said:
Minion agents included in a Ringwraith's deck count as characters for the purposes of meeting deck requirements.
Except that minion agents included in a Ringwraiths's deck count as hazards when they are played as agents.
... this discussion is about non-played cards (revealing or discarding) that are in your hand or deck. This discussion is not about playing agents.


The ICE ruling is clear. I can't accept that the ICE Netrep did not know that Agents have a purple border and that minion characters also have a purple border.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:36 am We can circle endlessly.
But we can also propose some regulation (that does not break rules).

E.g.
Revealing, or discarding may be satisfied by card of given type, regardless whether player can otherwise use it and manner in which he can use it.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Theo
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One ICE ruling:
ICE Rules Digest 564 wrote:>From: David Cook <dc...@ubisoft.qc.ca>
>Subject: RE: Rules Digest 563
>
> If I am playing hero can I use an agent with Ride Against the Enemy?

No. Agents are not characters for hero players.
Then again, Van also thought FW couldn't use agents with more than 5 mind as agents, so this ruling may be due to similar discrepancy with historical rulings on what "use" means.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:51 pm Just because minion characters count as characters in the deck during gameplay does not mean that minion agents count as characters in the deck during gameplay.

If minion agents were supposed to count as characters during gameplay as well as for deck construction, the MELE rules would have said:
Minion agents included in a Ringwraith's deck count as characters for the purposes of meeting deck requirements.
ICE Netrep Digest 588 wrote:From: <pall...@bigfoot.de>
> Subject: Question: Black Rain
> I want to use Black Rain. A Ringwraith/FW can use Agetns a Characters. Are Agents in this case characters, so that I can use Black Rain ???

Yes, agents would be considered characters in the hands of a Ringwraith or A Fallen Wizard.
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