Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

The place to ask all rules questions related to MECCG.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3263
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by Konrad Klar »

Applies only to players who cannot play an agent as a character.
For other players the answer for the following question seems to be positive.

There are situation when a character card may be used in other ways than playing it under player's control.
They include:
- revealing identical character card while influencing an opponent's character,
- discarding a character card as condition of other card (Drughu, Refuge),
- revealing a character card in result of other card (Ride Against the Enemy, Black Rain).

Question: can a player, who cannot play an agent as character under his control, use the agent card to satisfy above described conditions or results?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

Image

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by Theo »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:01 am
Question: can a player, who cannot play an agent as character under his control, use the agent card to satisfy above described conditions or results?
I would say yes.

While CDavis7M's MEDM reference classifies them as their own type of card (if that was his point?), MELE refines them to be characters. Weirdly, the definition of character cards in MELE appears bulleted in the starter rules (applies to Ringwraiths only). However, we do have:
MELE USING MELE WITH METW wrote:2 · THE CARDS AND DECKS
  Hazard cards are the same for both MELE and METW and may be freely used by both Ringwraiths and Wizards. MELE does not include region cards.
  However, if region movement is being used, Ringwraith players may use METW region cards (or an appropriate, mutually acceptable map).
MELE (i.e., Ringwraith) characters, resources, and sites are different from METW (i.e., Wizard) characters and resources, and sites. It is very important to distinguish between the two types:
• MELE characters are referred to as “minions” (or minion characters) and METW characters are referred to as “heroes” (or hero characters). Minion characters have a rusted purple background while hero characters have a blue stone background.
While only the first paragraph uses the word cards, the fact that this appears in the "THE CARDS AND DECKS" section leads me to believe that only cards are being referenced here. I conclude that other than for deck requirements, minion agent cards count as character cards. This means, e.g. they can't be retrieved by Unexpected Outpost/Nazgul Perms but they can by Smoke Rings/Wizards.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

ICE Digest 73 wrote:April 23, 1998
>As agents are hazard, can you bring back back with An unaxpected
>Outpost, Mouth of Sauron and/or Uvatha (this, in a wizard deck, as they
>count as characters in minion deck)


You may not get agents with Uvatha the Horseman, as agents are not creatures.
You may get them with Mouth of Sauron or An Unexpected Outpost.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by Theo »

Of course, you may get hazard agents with Mouth or An Unexpected Outpost. Character cards are not hazard cards. Perhaps a good example of why only the first part of that quote made it into the CRF.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:30 am
Of course, you may get hazard agents with Mouth or An Unexpected Outpost. Character cards are not hazard cards. Perhaps a good example of why only the first part of that quote made it into the CRF.
This is talking about agents in a hero deck. They are hazards. It's not specific to My Precious and Lobelia. The CRF is long enough. It doesn't always include the obvious. Sorry your rules interpretation was incorrect.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by Theo »

"MELE USING MELE WITH METW" reference above made it impossible for agents to be hazards in a hero deck. ICE Digest 73 doesn't change or overrule that.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:49 am
"MELE USING MELE WITH METW" reference above made it impossible for agents to be hazards in a hero deck.
No it doesn't. This passage in "USING MELE WITH METW" lets a Wizard player know that they can't use minion characters. It says nothing about agent minions counting as characters instead of hazards. "USING MELE WITH METW" doesn't override MEDM. They are compatible.
Theo wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:49 am
ICE Digest 73 doesn't change or overrule that.
Yes it does. If anything, it was written after the MELE rules and it explicitly rules on minion agents included in a hero deck.

ICE Digest 73 is not merely ruling on whether black bordered cards are hazards.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by Theo »

Are you saying that you think Agents are hazard cards for MELE? "Hazard cards are the same for both MELE and METW"
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:48 am
Are you saying that you think Agents are hazard cards for MELE? "Hazard cards are the same for both MELE and METW"
:lol:

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:48 am
Are you saying that you think Agents are hazard cards for MELE? "Hazard cards are the same for both MELE and METW"
Yes.

This is clear from the MEDM rules above and the MELE rules on agents stating "Agents operate as outlined in the ME: Dark Minions rules with the following exceptions: Minion agents included in a Ringwraith's deck count as characters for the purposes of meeting deck requirements. However, during play, each minion agent may be played as either a character (i.e., as a minion character) or as a hazard (i.e., as an agent)."

Also:
ICE - 1997/09/30 wrote:Agents in a minion deck are only characters while they are in play as characters, while they are being played as characters, and while you are constructing your deck.

User avatar
Theo
Posts: 997
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by Theo »

Interesting quote. It also includes things like:
"River may not be played on-guard."
as a strange exception to the rule that any card may be played on-guard (but on-guard cards can only be revealed in certain circumstances).

Here's another:
"You may not key a creature to the site of origin of a company that is being returned to its site of origin."
even though you cannot even play a creature on a company that is being returned to its site of origin.

Since none of these wordings made it into any CRF that I'm aware of, I'm inclined to believe that they realized the error of their ways. Instead, I reference:
There are four types of cards: site cards, character cards (including Ringwraith cards), resource cards, and hazard cards.
Note: The card types can be distinguished as follows:
Site cards have a grey parchment background on the front.
Character cards (non-Ringwraith) have a rusted-purplish iron background on the front. Each Ringwraith card has a blood-red stone background.
Resource cards have a grey-blue steel background on the front.
Hazard cards have a steel gray metal background on the front.
Also note that the MEDM description of minion cards is consistent with the MELE definition of character cards for Ringwraith players.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:12 am
Since none of these wordings made it into any CRF that I'm aware of, I'm inclined to believe that they realized the error of their ways.
Does Thorin not receive +4DI against Blue Mountain Dwarves? There are dozens or maybe even a hundred undeniably correct rulings that were removed at some point and were no longer in CRF 15. So this is not a valid assumption.

In MEDM agents are hazards. MELE uses the MEDM rules with exceptions. There is no exception making non-played minion agents be characters instead of hazards besides for deck construction counting. Minion agents are not characters until played as a character. Otherwise they are hazards.

Plus, ICE ruled this already. The ICE Netrep has said that they removed certain rulings from the CRF to keep is smaller and that these rulings should be obvious from reading the rules. There were plenty of reversals and they were acknowledged as such.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3263
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by Konrad Klar »

Lidless Eye wrote:Clarification: A character may control (i.e., bear) any item, even if he cannot use its abilities.

Clarification: A character may control (i.e., bear) more than one weapon or more than one shield or more than one
armor. However, only one of each type may be used at any given time.
So at least "bearing" and "using" are considered as distinct notions, and "bearing" does not include "using".

The initial question should be put differently:
Whether cards of appropriate type may be discarded or revealed for effect even if player cannot otherwise use them.

Player that has Alatar in play wants to play Drughu. Obviously he may not play second copy of Alatar. But does it mean that he cannot discard second Alatar copy as condition of Drughu?
What if Alatar is eliminated?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 1488
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: Using a non-hazard agent card as a character card

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:23 am
Player that has Alatar in play wants to play Drughu. Obviously he may not play second copy of Alatar. But does it mean that he cannot discard second Alatar copy as condition of Drughu?
What if Alatar is eliminated?
Discarding is not playing. Revealing is not playing. Playing is playing.

--You can reveal an identical character card while influencing an opponent's character even if you cannot play the revealed character.
--You can discarding a character card as condition of other card (Drughu, Refuge) even if you cannot play that character, even because of Uniqueness.
--No one (even a player that can play an agent as a character) can reveal an agent as a result of Ride Against the Enemy or Black Rain because agents in your hand are hazards, not characters.

Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions”