Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:02 am
The agent site card (because there could be none) affects nothing other than tracking which site-by-name the agent moved through.
In the case when agent does not use site card (is at his home site) there may still be mismatch of types.
It is known that hero or minion version of Isengard is normally [-me_rl-] , so face down agent that is at Isengard is at [-me_rl-] , while a company may be at Wizardhaven Isengard, or at [-me_bh-] Isengard.
Theo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:02 am
Agent can may creatures playable if its current site matches company's current site, but only the properties of the site card of the company matters.
Indeed. The errata is only needed in case:
"If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same
Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"
but not in case:
"If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the agent’s
home site".
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:56 pm
The site type of the company has no bearing on the agent's action to make creatures playable. Only the site name of the company's site and the site name of the agent's site need to be the same. There is no requirement that the site type be the same. The agent's site type matters for whether/which creatures are playable by the agent action. The company's site type does not matter for the agent action to make creatures playable.
Just ignore:
"If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same
Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"
and things will return to normal.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by CDavis7M »

One interpretation is simple and follows the rules while the other creates inconsistencies in the rules (see this post and the linked posts)

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:06 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:56 pm
The site type of the company has no bearing on the agent's action to make creatures playable. Only the site name of the company's site and the site name of the agent's site need to be the same. There is no requirement that the site type be the same. The agent's site type matters for whether/which creatures are playable by the agent action. The company's site type does not matter for the agent action to make creatures playable.
Just ignore:
"If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same
Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"
and things will return to normal.
The phrase "If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold" can only be interpreted to require that the company's site-type be the same as the agent's site-type if you ignore the preceding statement: "An agent may tap to make certain creatures playable at its current site (see below)."

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:52 pm
The phrase "If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold" can only be interpreted to require that the company's site-type be the same as the agent's site-type if you ignore the preceding statement: "An agent may tap to make certain creatures playable at its current site (see below)."
No.

Some statement may be proved or disproved on the ground of logic.
But how to prove or disprove a logic itself - I do not have idea.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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Theo
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Theo »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:06 am
In the case when agent does not use site card (is at his home site) there may still be mismatch of types.
It is known that hero or minion version of Isengard is normally [-me_rl-] , so face down agent that is at Isengard is at [-me_rl-] , while a company may be at Wizardhaven Isengard, or at [-me_bh-] Isengard.
Underlined portion must be challenged. Face down agent can only be considered to be at Isengard, The whole point is that there is no site card. The site type can only be determined through other means, e.g. what types both players have in their site decks and what types are in play (by either player) for other reasons.

Reasonable options I see:
1) Types of a site are the union of types of site cards in play (as possibly modified by other effects) and on site cards in either player's deck (again, possibly modified by effects, although I know you don't believe they should be).
2) Types of a site are the union of site cards in play, or if none are in play are the union of types on site cards in either player's deck.
3) Types of a site are the union of, per player, sites in play or if none are in play by that player the site cards in that player's deck.

I thought you believed (2) was how things should work, which in your example would mean that the agent is at (a minimum) Wizardhaven Isengard.

As I've said, I think (3) is more appropriate.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:32 pm
Underlined portion must be challenged.
I'm convinced by you here.
Theo wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:32 pm
The whole point is that there is no site card. The site type can only be determined through other means, e.g. what types both players have in their site decks and what types are in play (by either player) for other reasons.
If we will compare mind of Gandalf and mind of Ori then Ori will win.
Seriously: it is not comparable.
Dark Minions, Agents, Revealing an Agent wrote:If one of your agents is revealed before it has moved, you must immediately choose
which home site it is at—place the appropriate site card with the agent. If you do not
have such a site card in your location deck, discard the agent at the end of the current
turn.
If to save a literal sense of:
"If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same
Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"

then there are two approaches:
- for face down agents that did not move: result of check is always positive as long a company uses Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold. It may become negative when the agent is revealed,
- in other cases: normal type of minion or hero version of the site is taken into account, depending of agent's controlling player. Result of the check may also become negative when the agent is revealed.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:32 am
If to save a literal sense of:
"If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same
Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"

then there are two approaches:
- for face down agents that did not move: result of check is always positive as long a company uses Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold. It may become negative when the agent is revealed,
- in other cases: normal type of minion or hero version of the site is taken into account, depending of agent's controlling player. Result of the check may also become negative when the agent is revealed.
This interpretation is not saving the literal sense of "If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:32 am
- for face down agents that did not move: result of check is always positive as long a company uses Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold. It may become negative when the agent is revealed,
We know that the agent is at company's site (unless agent's controlling player is cheating).
We know that the site in play used by company is Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold.
If it is not enough to say that agent is at Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold, then it is impossible to tap an face down agent to make a creatures playable at an Agent’s Site.
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar »

In either case, if a creature is played in this manner, the agent is revealed (if it was not
already revealed).
The part of the rule did not receive a much of attention.

What if agent is at other site, than he was at moment of tapping to make creatures playable?
After all, after tapping to make creatures playable, he can move to other site (if he can make more than one agent action in turn).
Moreover the agent may be in meantime removed from active play.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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