Council of Elrond

Is the second AA in under-deeps revealed before facing the first one or after that? I find no rules on this...

Not so far but in CRF, Turn-Sequence, Site Phase, Automatic-attacks.

Automatic-attacks added to a site are faced after the normal automatic-attacks for the site. Multiple automatic-attacks are faced in the order listed and/or resolved.

Maybe I wasn't clear about this: when hazard player decides if the second AA exists and what's its type?

I've always played the 2nd AA has to be declared when you enter the site.

It's after you face the 1st I thought. I used to play it that you had to say when entering the site, but we found something that said you could do it after resolving the 1st AA. I'll try to find it.

From COE Rulings Digest # 59 :

If my opponent enters a site which has text saying that the second automatic-attack may be a creature from hazard player's hand, must I reveal this creature as soon as he enters site, or I can reveal the creature after the first automatic-attack?

*** You reveal it when the automatic-attack comes up, which is after the first.


and from COE Rulings Digest # 67 :

Playing a hazard creature from your hand as a 2nd automatic-attack at an Under-deeps site:
a) Does it count against the hazard limit?
b) When is this card being played?
I) when opponents company enters the site during the site phase?
II) during the movement/ hazard phase?
c) What happens if Tidings of Bold Spies is being played during the the movement/ hazard
phase? Do you play that creature for the 2nd auto-attack now?

*** a) No.
b) Neither. It's played when the attack is to be faced.
c) CRF, Card Errata and Rulings, Tidings of Bold Spies: Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks.


and from COE Rulings Digest # 97 :

When do you determine the second automatic attack at an Under-deep sites? What about Tiding of Bolds Spies, Unabated in Malice, and e.g. Incite Minions (as an onguard card)?

*** You determine the second automatic attack when it is faced. In other words, after the first automatic attack has finished.
CRF, Card Errata and Rulings, Tidings of Bold Spies:
Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks.

Unabated in Malice, Incite Minions, and other cards can target and affect these types of automatic-attacks as usual, unless a ruling or the card says otherwise.

I wonder what was the reasoning. We know first attack, additional attack (nazgul), creature on-guard but we do not know the second attack...

!bump!

a somewhat old and now forgotten topic it seams as I hear that people on GCCG play that you can reveal the second AA in under-deeps before site-phase (during movement/hazard - for the purposes of playing a deadlier Tidings) - which contradicts everything that was said here...

so did anything new pop up to change things?

|Highwayman| wrote:!bump!

a somewhat old and now forgotten topic it seams as I hear that people on GCCG play that you can reveal the second AA in under-deeps before site-phase (during movement/hazard - for the purposes of playing a deadlier Tidings) - which contradicts everything that was said here...

so did anything new pop up to change things?

Whoever was that played tidings that way was wrong:

CoE Rulings digest 67 wrote:CRF, Card Errata and Rulings, Tidings of Bold Spies: Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks.

marcos wrote:Whoever was that played tidings that way was wrong:

CoE Rulings digest 67 wrote:CRF, Card Errata and Rulings, Tidings of Bold Spies: Tidings of Bold Spies only copies attacks, not effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks.

No sure. Second AA in under-deeps is not an "effect that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks". It exist as AA. If card like Chocking Shadows is played on such AA, it is played on AA, not on "effect that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks". If the Forewarned is Forearmed affects a hero under-deeps it is because the hero under-deeps have more than one AA, not because they have single AA plus "effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks".

So what are "effects that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks"?
Some under-deeps have special text that states that under certain conditions the site will have an additional Nazgul AA.
Of course such interpretation has one problem. Likewise second AA is not an "effect that allow certain creatures to become automatic-attacks", Nazgul that becomes the additional AA exists in play as a permanent-event, not as creature. From other hand - Nazgul card is dual type (creature|permanent-event) card and creature attributes are used for defining the additional AA; Nazgul as permanent-event has no prowess, body, nor type (race).

Perhaps cards such as Choking Shadows may be played because they have a potential effect on the game, i.e. there might end up being an auto attack during the site phase? Tidings would not work in that case because the attack is not defined until the site phase.

Has Chocking Shadows target or not? Is it played on site, or on AA?
In other words: could you play it on Deep Mines (that potentially may have AA if The Black Enemy's Wrath will be played this turn)?
OK, other example - Hoarmurath of Dir: can be it tapped to modify attack that may only potentially appear?

When second AA should be defined and how long its definition is valid (when it expires) is separate question and it even exists independly from the Tidings of Bold Spies.
Some effects causes that AAs must be faced again even during the same turn (e.g. Troll-Purse).
It is nowhere written in rules. I don't know whether second AA must be redefined each time it is faced, or once defined it is constant until end of turn or perhaps as long as site is in play.