Council of Elrond

I have a few questions about Secret Book.

MEAS Secret Book wrote:Cannot be included with a starting company. Discard: to untap a or or to make Information playable at any . Cannot be duplicated in a given party.

Here are the 2 relevant points from the CRF:

CRF - "Site" wrote:To untap a site the character doing so must be at that site.
Hero events cannot target or affect minion sites, and vice versa. News of the Shire is an exception.

Ok, seems clear enough. However, Rule 585 states something different and more restrictive:

>May I use Secrets Books (Minion Minor Item) to untap a Hero free->or borderhold ?
No, hero resources cannot target a minion site.

Was this ruling mistaken? The rule is that minion EVENTS cannot target hero sites. The rule does not mention minion items or characters. Is anyone aware of how this card has been played in FW decks at tournaments?

Minion Thror's Map would suffer from a similar issue but it is unique and there is a corresponding hero version to use instead.

Items do not target anything.
Secret Book / Thror's Map may be discarded to untap a site of opposite alignment.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:32 am Items do not target anything.
Secret Book / Thror's Map may be discarded to untap a site of opposite alignment.

If one is a FW. Playing an opposite alignment item as Wizard/RW removes all abilities of the item.

While items do not target anything, actions produced by items can, and that is probably what the original rule referred to:

A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

Which was updated to:

White Hand Rules, Playing and Using Resource, Targeting Site and Resource Cards: change both instances of "resource card may not target/affect" to "resource event card may not target/affect."

Technically speaking, events do not target anything; only the actions produced by such events.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:53 pm If one is a FW. Playing an opposite alignment item as Wizard/RW removes all abilities of the item.

I have assumed that owner is able to use at all mentioned items. Troll character under control of FW player cannot discard hero Thror's Map regardless of site's alignment.

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:53 pm Technically speaking, events do not target anything; only the actions produced by such events.

I disagree. If a card X is played and one of its action targets Y then X is considered targeting Y.

And if card X is an item, such a Magic Ring of Stealth?

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:35 pm And if card X is an item, such a Magic Ring of Stealth?

Magic Ring of Stealth does not have a target.

What is the difference between Halfling Stealth cancelling a strike and Magic Ring of Stealth cancelling a strike?

In first case Halfling Stealth is declared, in second case Magic Ring of Stealth is not declared, tapping of Magic Ring of Stealth is declared.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:56 pm In first case Halfling Stealth is declared, in second case Magic Ring of Stealth is not declared, tapping of Magic Ring of Stealth is declared.

In the first case, *play* of Halfling Stealth is declared. Tapping of Magic Ring of Stealth is not declared; it is the active condition of the declaration of the cancel action.

In either case, there doesn't seem to be a substantial difference. The actions the cards create have targets; the cards themselves do not have targets. Saying they do is simply convenient shorthand.

Youthful 2006 Brandobras answered my question:

http://www.meccg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1795

Bandobras Took wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:20 pm Tapping of Magic Ring of Stealth is not declared; it is the active condition of the declaration of the cancel action.

Right. My bad.

Substantial difference is that Halfling Stealth is played and Magic Ring of Stealth is not.

Similarly Gollum/Stinker is not played on The One Ring. Both may be tapped to discard The One Ring of any alignment (and itself).

What I don't understand is why that would make a difference.

There are conditions of playing a card and there are conditions of using a card already in play.
Only short-events and permanent-events may have a target as a condition of playing them.

Even then, the play of Halfling Stealth has no such target, only the canceling action from the card text.

And "discard" action from Marvels Told has hazard event as a target and cc from the same Marvels Told has sage as a target.

So if not Marvels Told as whole has targets it may resolve even if hazard event specified at declaration does not exist at resolution.
Right?